2 questions

[newknapper]

I am new to flintlocks and muzzle loaders in general. I have read about hard fouling rings at the bottom of the barrel and I am just curious how can you tell if I was to ever have that issue. Also I have been fooling around with making some powder measures out of antler. Is the grains of powder measured in volume or weight? I have been weighing charges on a grain scale but wouldn't 70 grains of FFg volume wise be more that 70 grains of FFFg since the granules are a little larger? 

[retired fella]

First mark your ramrod when uncharged and with your normal charge with patched ball.  If you are unable to get to your charged mark you have a fouling ring or an obstruction.  Simply swab with moist cleaning patch to remove.  I normally swab after 5 shots.  Some here tout not swabbing during an entire match.  To each his own I guess.

if you have already worked up your load using a scale to your satisfaction use that amount to calibrate your antler measure.  As to 3f vs 2f each gun is different and you need to experiment and see what your gun likes better.

Welcome to the madness.

[Candle Snuffer]

I am new to flintlocks and muzzle loaders in general. I have read about hard fouling rings at the bottom of the barrel and I am just curious how can you tell if I was to ever have that issue. Also I have been fooling around with making some powder measures out of antler. Is the grains of powder measured in volume or weight? I have been weighing charges on a grain scale but wouldn't 70 grains of FFg volume wise be more that 70 grains of FFFg since the granules are a little larger? 

Fouling rings at the bottom of the barrel; in the 40+ years I've been in this game I've not run up against this as 99.9% of the shoots and range time I spend I will swab my bore after 5 to 8 shots depending on the competition I'm in, and after five shots when just practicing. I have also practiced emptying my 12 shot bullet block when practicing without swabbing or noticing any fouling rings.

As to powder measures; I have always made mine by grain scale and use 2fg for this. It doesn't matter to me if I use 3fg in a 2fg grain scaled measure I've made... It might make a difference to someone else such as a chunk gun shooter where the up most accuracy is required to "spider" the X...

[smylee grouch]

There are alot of ways to do it. I like to work up a load with a volume measure that I have used for 40 + years and record it in a note book. I also record what that charge comes out at on a powder scale for that particular powder and lot number. All of my hunting guns are very forgiving as to a few grains one way or another of the optimum charge weight.

[newknapper]

thanks guys, I appreciate it.

[L. Akers]

Because of the smaller grain size, a volume of 3F will weigh a bit more than an equal volume of 2F.   

Work up an accurate load, bore your antler to hold that volume of powder and shoot.  It doesn't really matter what it weighs--that's just a convenient way to describe a charge.

The accumulation of fouling rings (at least in my guns) seem related to the temperature and humidity and may occur anywhere in the length of the barrel.  If one accumulates just wipe your bore as has been suggested.

[hanshi]

I usually weigh charges and then bore out the antler tip to hold that much by volume.  I only measure and load by volume and don't differentiate between 2F and 3F.  I occasionally will have a crust ring in the breech that mostly happens in low humidity.  These rings don't normally interfere with loading since I use a tight prb fit that prevents them from forming.  A damp swab easily dislodges them. 

[Squirrel pizza]

Are ya squirrel shootin in the yard or at the Camp Perry match? A grain or two for plinking doesn't make a lot of difference. Have used antler horn and home made measures for years. A hit behind the ear is as effective as a hit between the eyes. I've owned rifles that demand to be cleaned between shots, as most target shooting purists recommend, and some that go 10 shots or so before loading becomes a problem. . The type of rifleing you have makes a difference. Square, round, button, yada yada. Just shoot. And shoot a lot. Get to know your rifle and after a while it will tell you what she likes. Welcome to the wonderful world of things that could possibly go wrong. And they will. Just remember, powder , patch , ball. The rest will come! Enjoy.

[galudwig]

I have been fooling around with making some powder measures out of antler. Is the grains of powder measured in volume or weight? I have been weighing charges on a grain scale but wouldn't 70 grains of FFg volume wise be more that 70 grains of FFFg since the granules are a little larger?  

Just remember that a "grain" is a measure of weight.  Volume is a measure of the space that weight takes up in a container.  Once you determine the weight of the powder charge that makes your particular rifle, patch, and ball combo shoot accurately, you make a container that throws a volume of powder that closely approximates that weight every time.  You could weigh out the powder charge for each shot, but it is much quicker and easier to use a measure whose cavity holds a volume of powder equal to the weight of powder you need.  A powder measure is simply a tool that replaces a scale for practical use.

Think of a powder bushing used in a modern shotshell loader.  It is bored out to a specific volume.  Theoretically, all #24 bushings are bored to the same volume, regardless of when it was made.  If you look at the powder chart for a #24 bushing, you notice that the weight of the charge it will throw varies by the type and brand of powder you run through it.  Different materials can occupy space differently in the same sized container.

You are basically right in thinking that a measure made for a charge of FFg might throw a charge that weighs slightly less than an equal volume of FFFg.  Although the type of powder is the same, the size of the powder granules are different.  If you take a 100 grain Pyrodex pellet and make a measure to fit it exactly, you have a measure that holds 100 grains of Pyrodex by volume.  Now take that pellet and grind it up finely and place it back it the measure.  It will likely level out below the top of the measure.  Take another pellet and smash it with a wooden mallet.  Now try to place all the pieces back into your measure.  They likely won't all fit back in without over-topping the measure.  The point is that equal weights of the same material may occupy the same volume differently depending on the size & shape of it's pieces.  Larger, irregularly shaped pieces take up more room than smaller, more uniformly shaped pieces.  They simply pack better.

An old timer taught me that you have to be consistent in how you fill your measure if you want consistency between shots.  Try this experiment with your powder measure.  Fill the measure full without shaking the powder down and weigh the charge.  Fill the measure full again and shake the powder down three times and weigh the charge.  Now fill the measure full one more time, shake the powder down six times and weigh the charge.  You will find that each charge will weigh differently (likely getting heavier each time).  As the powder settles, you create more space behind it for more powder to fill in, which can up the charge weight.  It really doesn't matter which school of shaking down that you follow.  The point is if you like to shake the powder down three times, do that every time you fill the measure.  

I personally do not shake the powder down when I fill a measure.  I let it fill naturally and have found my powder charge weights to be more consistent than when I shake the measure down.  I also don't have to keep track of how many times I shook it.  I'm easily distracted...  
  

[Molly]

"One English pound equals the weight of 7000 plump "grains" of wheat"

So saith the King!

So, in the beginning I suppose it was weight.  But then.....

 http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder-reference-forum/393991-volume-vs-weight-understanding-powder-loads-muzzleloaders.html

[galudwig]

"One English pound equals the weight of 7000 plump "grains" of wheat"

So saith the King!

So, in the beginning I suppose it was weight.  But then.....

 http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder-reference-forum/393991-volume-vs-weight-understanding-powder-loads-muzzleloaders.html

Agreed.  Like I said about modern shotshell bushings, the weights a given bushing will throw will vary depending on type and brand of powder.  Same can be said between BP and it's substitutes.  I forgot about the volume vs. weight thing regarding the substitute powders because I never use them.  I used the Pyrodex pellet more for a visual than as a comparison between propellant weights, so I should have been clearer in doing so.  It is a good idea to point that out so thanks for that link.   

[Squirrel pizza]

Very interesting Molly, I learned something new. Or did you just make that up?

[Daryl]

Molly is correct in the King-deal.  This is the standard of measurement in the IMPERIAL scale, however wheat is not used for proving scales today.

Goes on 437 1/2 grains(of wheat) to an ounce.

As well, 27 1/3 grains (of wheat) to a dram.

I have a number of 3 dram powder measures that I MADE to throw stricken WEIGHTS of powder at 82grains 2F GOEX, thus  3 x 27.3 = 81.9gr. - close enough to 82.0grains for me.

I take a brass tube of appropriate size, dump in a weighed measure of powder that has proven to work in a certain gun, then mark and cut the tube, so that it "THROWS" that WEIGHT of powder.  I record and/or remember the stricken powder measure needed to throw the correct WEIGHT of powder for each gun.

3 Drams is my trail walk squib load for my 14 bore rifle and as well, my long barreled .50 also seems to like this load, although I have not 'worked' up an accuracy load for that rifle, yet - I must do that soon.

CTG cases picked up off the floor at the range can be used to make powder measures.

Photobucket is closed right now for maintenance - so cannot post a picture of a few powder measures I have made. The smaller the diameter of the powder chamber, the more accurately you can throw the charges.  The larger the diameter of the measure the more variation per "throw" you will get.  For example, a 3/8" diameter 'measure' will throw more accurate loads than will a 1/2" or 5/8" diameter measure.

Most adjustable measures are in the 3/8" to 7/16" sizes.  These, with practice, can throw charges with less than 1 grains weight variation, throw to throw.  The least accurate measures are those made from cow horns with grossly tapered cavities & may vary, depending on design & size, from 2 to 5gr. weight differences. While this may not be noticeable on a field or trail walk shoot, it can make a difference in precision accuracy contests like bench, plank or chunk shooting - where some contestants actually weigh out powder charges and have them per-measured, as in weighed and stored in small containers.

photobucket's back up

[Molly]

Pizza:

Be careful or you'll incur the wrath of the forum.  Everyone KNOWS you crusty old dudes simply cannot learn anything from a gal.

[hanshi]

It's good to remember that our forebears didn't have scales to weight each charge so they measured volume.

[Daryl]

It's good to remember that our forebears didn't have scales to weight each charge so they measured volume.

Yes - and that is the method I use to determine what works best - by stricken/volume measure.

I know for a fact my adjustable measure is imperfect - cannot be trusted to what is said on it's side - thus, I start at a good spot on the adjustable measure, loading that charge and testing accuracy. I gradually increase the powder charge to where I get the accuracy I demand.

 I take that adjustable measure at that setting home and weigh the powder charge it THROWS on a grain scale. I then make a stricken measure from brass, either ctg. brass or from brass tubing with a glued or riveted wooden plug to throw that exact WEIGHT of powder.

Thus, I load using a stricken measure, every time - not weighed, but stricken. However, if I lose that powder measure, I can consult my notes and make another that throws that WEIGHT of powder.

[Daryl]

Pizza:

Be careful or you'll incur the wrath of the forum.  Everyone KNOWS you crusty old dudes simply cannot learn anything from a gal.

I don't understand this post - we all agree with you - you most certainly are correct.

[Molly]

Daryl:

Where is your sense of humor!!

[galudwig]

It's good to remember that our forebears didn't have scales to weight each charge so they measured volume.

Yes - and that is the method I use to determine what works best - by stricken/volume measure.

I know for a fact my adjustable measure is imperfect - cannot be trusted to what is said on it's side - thus, I start at a good spot on the adjustable measure, loading that charge and testing accuracy. I gradually increase the powder charge to where I get the accuracy I demand.

 I take that adjustable measure at that setting home and weigh the powder charge it THROWS on a grain scale. I then make a stricken measure from brass, either ctg. brass or from brass tubing with a glued or riveted wooden plug to throw that exact WEIGHT of powder.

Thus, I load using a stricken measure, every time - not weighed, but stricken. However, if I lose that powder measure, I can consult my notes and make another that throws that WEIGHT of powder.

Exactly the process I went through for the measures I use for my offhand rifles.  Since these measures are dedicated to my match rifles, I add one of Cash's bolt on funnels to them to make dumping the charge into the barrel quick and easy. 

[hanshi]

Yep, I find my charge by volume, weigh it , then make a measure for it.

[Mad Monk]

For what it is worth.

Powder measures are set to throw 100 grains weight of water at the 100 setting.  Water being 1 in volume to weight.  Years back I took 5 different commercial powder measures and checked them in the lab to see if that was a standard approach to designing the powder measures.

Different brands of BP are made to different final grain densities.  So how much weight will be thrown by a measure at a certain setting will vary from one brand of powder to another and often different from one lot to another in addition to small variations from one grain size to another.

[Molly]

and no matter how careful you pour it down the barrel how many grains spill off and never get to where they are supposed to be?

[Daryl]

and no matter how careful you pour it down the barrel how many grains spill off and never get to where they are supposed to be?

A few granuals - sometimes, but only if I am being careless.  I generally use a powder measure that is undersized to the bore, making dumping the powder into the bore quite accurate.  I used to use tapered measures made from animal leg bones or cow, deer or moose antlers, however they are mush less accurate in dumping the same powder charge, time after time.

I am not normally a stickler for detail (anal), but I do insist on doing some things exactly the same, each time.

[SCLoyalist]

The density of powder varies with granulation and by manufacturer.   Weighing in the field is impractical, so once you find a load (whether by volume or by weight) you like, you make or find a volume measure that throws that amount of powder and use that.   

[Daryl]

You cannot always judge powder weight according to it's granulation size, in that finer granulation sizes don't always weigh more than larger grains of powder.  Weight per volume all depends on the powder's specific gravity.

GOEX 3F in a 'given' volume weighed 78gr.

Swiss 1 1/2F - of that same volume, weighed 85gr.

The 3f charge was still faster, as expected but only by 70fps.