Author Topic: Wheel lock troubleshooting  (Read 3053 times)

Offline Scota4570

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Wheel lock troubleshooting
« on: July 31, 2016, 02:11:33 AM »
I was asked to work on a wheel lock.  It is made from a casting set.  Over all the workmanship is pretty crude.

The original problem was a broken chain.  I fixed that. It worked OK. 

 The owner was disappointed that pan did not self open.  I owe him a lot so I made a new tumbler.  I made the tumbler with a cam to auto open the pan.  It works.  Trouble is it does not spark if the pan is set to auto open.  IT appears that the dog spring is not snappy enough to get he pyrite down on the wheel fast enough.  It does spark if I start with the pan open. 

The mainspring is also pretty sad.  It is super thick.  The action of the spring is short of keeping the chain under tension at the bottom of it's movement.  The spring is very tight when wound to full cock.  The wheel is only under power for about 1/3 of a turn.  I am thinking that it is contributing to a feeble spark.  The last cast spring I messed with broke, I am gun shy about messing with the springs.

I have never even held a wheel lock until this one.  Should I just be happy it works at all and move on? 

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Wheel lock troubleshooting
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2016, 02:54:55 AM »
I was asked to work on a wheel lock.  It is made from a casting set.  Over all the workmanship is pretty crude.

The original problem was a broken chain.  I fixed that. It worked OK. 

 The owner was disappointed that pan did not self open.  I owe him a lot so I made a new tumbler.  I made the tumbler with a cam to auto open the pan.  It works.  Trouble is it does not spark if the pan is set to auto open.  IT appears that the dog spring is not snappy enough to get he pyrite down on the wheel fast enough.  It does spark if I start with the pan open. 

The mainspring is also pretty sad.  It is super thick.  The action of the spring is short of keeping the chain under tension at the bottom of it's movement.  The spring is very tight when wound to full cock.  The wheel is only under power for about 1/3 of a turn.  I am thinking that it is contributing to a feeble spark.  The last cast spring I messed with broke, I am gun shy about messing with the springs.

I have never even held a wheel lock until this one.  Should I just be happy it works at all and move on? 

I support the last sentence and I have had a lot of experience with springs.

Bob Roller

Offline volatpluvia

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Re: Wheel lock troubleshooting
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2016, 04:16:49 AM »
I have built several, one from a kit, very crude castings, the others I reverse engineered and used some of my own ideas, not all of which worked.   I made the kit work and one of my own worked.  They are extremely difficult to make reliable.  I succeeded marginaly.  Very frustrating.  No wonder thy kept inventing until they arrived at the flintlock!
I believe, therefore I speak.  Apostle Paul.

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Re: Wheel lock troubleshooting
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2016, 09:18:50 AM »
Thought of emailing Raszpla for help?

Offline L. Akers

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Re: Wheel lock troubleshooting
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2016, 03:15:27 PM »


 



.  The action of the spring is short of keeping the chain under tension at the bottom of it's movement.  The spring is very tight when wound to full cock.  The wheel is only under power for about 1/3 of a turn. 



I have not worked on a wheellock but I have done some researching because building one was on my bucket list.  I think your 1/3 of a turn should be closer to 5/8 of a turn.  The chain should be under tension in the fired condition.
 
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Wheel lock troubleshooting
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2016, 07:07:52 PM »
The Dag Taylor built lock, stock and barrel works - first time, every time - very trustworthy and ignition is like a modern pistol or cap-lock, seemingly instantaneous.
Perhaps Taylor will chime in - I do not know where he got the plans to build the lock.
 


« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 06:54:39 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Scota4570

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Re: Wheel lock troubleshooting
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2016, 08:25:16 PM »
The one I am messing with is a lot like the last post's pictures.  Mine was "finished" with a buffing wheel.  There is lots of casting flash on springs and working surfaces.  

I spent time polishing things and getting it to work more smoothly.  I put the original tumble back.  The mainspring seems to have taken a set.  The main spring  is much to thick.  The chain is slack enough to sometimes come off the mainspring.  The next step would be to make a new mainspring.  Since I am not interested in spending another day fussing with it, I will walk away before I break something.  

I am happy to see somebody can make one of these work.  This one sparks but does not ignite powder in the pan.  

Later the same day,  I found this exact rifle at the builder's website.  It was a Rifle Shop casting set.  Based on what was there it worked great at one time.  ..............must walk away now.  :  )
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 08:49:45 PM by Scota4570 »

Offline Daryl

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Re: Wheel lock troubleshooting
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2016, 06:57:01 PM »
Scota4570 - the lock I pictured is hand made including all of it's parts - it is not a kit.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline smart dog

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Re: Wheel lock troubleshooting
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2016, 12:58:22 AM »
Hi Scota,
Good on you for making the new parts that allow for an automatic pan opening.  Historically not all wheellocks did that. On some, you had to slide the cover forward before firing, others you pushed a button that slid the pan forward, others were fully automatic, and lastly some had the button and automatic feature.  I assume the latter locks were an admission that reliability was greater when the pan was slid forward before shooting.  The dog spring must be strong but more important, the toe on the dog must be shaped properly so that the dog will continue to move downward as the pan cover slides forward.  Sometimes, on poorly made wheellocks, the dog gets hung at the position it was when the pyrite was pressing on the pan cover and does not move down when the cover slides forward.  That would mean no sparks.  It is a skilled balancing act to get it right.  I urge you not to change the distance the wheel rotates or the strength and thickness of the mainspring.  The mainspring must be very, very strong so that as powder fouling and flash escape from the grooves in the bottom of the pan and build up behind the wheel, the mainspring can still rotate the wheel against the fouling.  The short throw of the wheel also helps prevent jamming.  You do not need much rotation to produce good sparks if the pyrite is good and the springs properly balanced.  This is why wheellocks did not make good military weapons.  Also tell you client not to use 4f powder for priming.  Coarser powder is less likely to fall down behind the wheel if the grooves in the pan are not precise and are sloppy.

dave 
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Offline Scota4570

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Re: Wheel lock troubleshooting
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2016, 01:41:33 AM »
Thanks for the information Dave.  Any chance I would ever own a wheel lock is now zero.  

This rifle will be sold.  It now functions as it left the shop of a well known maker.  It does not ignite 2F powder.  My friend fessed up that it never was reliable.  Hopefully the name engraved on the top flat will help sell it.  Before somebody asks, the maker is getting along in years, I don't want to bother him about it or defame him  by posting his name.  
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 01:57:09 AM by Scota4570 »