Author Topic: Not long nor is it American  (Read 7503 times)

eddillon

  • Guest
Not long nor is it American
« on: August 03, 2016, 03:23:49 AM »
Recently acquired this neat English pistol with sliding safety.  Bore is smooth .  No pits.  No rust inside or out of the barrel.  Full octagon, damascus with front sight.  Bore about .50 cal.  Barrel is just shy of 6 inches in length. Hook breach. Has rear sight on the rear tang.  Lock is marked Oakes.  Mr. Oakes died in 1807.  The lock marking is the only name on the pistol.  Bottom flat has crossed sceptres with V.  Birmingham standard proof also.  Much of the original finish on wood and metal.  Checkering is almost perfectly intact..  If anyone out there has additional informaton on Oakes, please bring it on.
Thanks for looking,
Ed

 




« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 03:43:41 AM by aka california eddillon »

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2016, 04:48:10 AM »
 This is almost a dead ringer for the pistol Green River Forge sold years ago called the factor's pistol. It had the short barrel, round triggerguard, and the bag grip. I would not be surprised if the pistol they copied was made by Oakes.

  Hungry Horse

eddillon

  • Guest
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2016, 04:56:20 AM »
According to the Green River literature, they copied a Barnett with a belt hook.  Mine has no belt hook and has a single lock bolt.
 

hammer

  • Guest
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2016, 01:54:30 PM »
Beautiful quality English overcoat pistol.  In first class condition.  Would be interesting to see any barrel makers mark under the barrel and the lockmakers mark on the inside of the plate.

Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3808
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2016, 02:57:34 PM »
Was it originally percussion?
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

eddillon

  • Guest
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2016, 05:40:22 PM »
Was it originally percussion?

Not a re-conversion.  Original flint.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 05:41:29 PM by aka california eddillon »

Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3808
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2016, 11:04:40 PM »
I asked because of the touch hole liner and the form continued to be used well into the mid 19th century.  Since I didn't see the lockplate side
I wondered.  It's a great little pistol.  Thanks for sharing.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

eddillon

  • Guest
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2016, 02:01:13 AM »
More photos.

Lock inside.  No markings.


Close-up of intereting sheet metal cover over sear spring.  All I can think of is that it keeps dirt and other matter from getting in between the leafs of the spring.



The only barrel marks  Birmingham proofs.  Lens distortion, not a bulged barrel :)

« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 06:24:15 PM by aka california eddillon »

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2016, 03:49:44 AM »
It's actually a spring in itself, to keep the safety running within a plane.. .it'll have a notch or detent corresponding to the safety, to make it latch positively.  It has nothing to do with dirt.  Great overcoat pistol BTW!!
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2016, 01:58:13 PM »
I asked because of the touch hole liner and the form continued to be used well into the mid 19th century.  Since I didn't see the lockplate side
I wondered.  It's a great little pistol.  Thanks for sharing.
Touch hole liners were common on english guns. Continental  euro guns too for that matter.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Online smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2016, 02:04:22 PM »
Hi Ed,
I've built this kind of lock.  The triangular cover is a spring that pushes on the sliding safety bolt.  The inside of the spring will have a small nub (detent) and the sliding bolt also has a nub.  When forward in locked position, the nub on the bolt is in front of the detent on the spring which holds it forward.  When slid back into the release position, the position of the nubs is reversed so the bolt is held back.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline JV Puleo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2016, 07:25:35 PM »
The proof marks are post-1813 so something else is going on here. Either there was another Oaks — which is entirely plausible and the business continued on after Mr. Oaks died or it's a B'ham made contemporary "fake" although I use that word guardedly. Practically all of the name related data we have from this period is based on city directories which, while good, are not infallible. Participation in a directory was voluntary and cost money and by no means did every tradesman go to the trouble of being listed. Also, heirs sometimes carried on a trade, using a name, for years after the original tradesman died. This would be especially true where the actual products being sold were purchased on the wholesale market and simply marked with the name of a tradesman... like this pistol which is almost certainly a product of the B'ham trade. In as much as can be told from photos, I think the gun is fine but the dating is off.

Offline James Rogers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3164
  • James Rogers
    • Fowling Piece
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2016, 08:08:09 PM »
There was a Charles Oakes working in Sussex from 1810-1839
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 08:08:41 PM by James Rogers »

eddillon

  • Guest
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2016, 10:38:52 PM »
I agree.  Style is 1810 or later.  There are several Oakes listed Blackmore and others.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2016, 11:36:41 PM »
There was a Charles Oakes working in Sussex from 1810-1839
That would probably be your man. Time period corresponds with the gun.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

eddillon

  • Guest
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2016, 12:40:27 AM »
There was a Charles Oakes working in Sussex from 1810-1839
That would probably be your man. Time period corresponds with the gun.
Do you know the source reference for Charles Oakes?

Offline James Rogers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3164
  • James Rogers
    • Fowling Piece
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2016, 01:02:17 AM »
There was a Charles Oakes working in Sussex from 1810-1839
That would probably be your man. Time period corresponds with the gun.
Do you know the source reference for Charles Oakes?

English Gunmakers by DeWitt Bailey

eddillon

  • Guest
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2016, 02:01:44 AM »
I just ordered the book!  I buy a gun and then seem to need more information.  Built a hellava library.

loosecanon1998

  • Guest
Re: Not long nor is it American
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2016, 02:58:52 AM »
That's how it seems to often go, out and about and run across something you can't do without and then hours of research! For me being new to the passion of collecting antique American arms the research is half the fun.

I have seen several references in different post about percussion being converted to flint, did this happen often? I thought it was usually the other way around.