Horn Shaping Questions

[toddsndrsn]

A couple questions about horn shaping

1.  Should the butt of the horn be shaped to be uniformly round, more specifically, a period correct method?  I don't have a lathe to turn a shaping cone.  I do feel confident I can get a nice finish by working the wood with files and rasps for a good fit and finish without using a shaping cone.  Any advantages or disadvantages to not using a shaping cone?

2.  The spout of the horn is not perfectly round which is probably a common fact.  I used a compass in the centering hole for the drill bit to see how out of round it was.  Should I scrape the excess before starting to layout the panels or just work everything down and hope I can even out the panels as I go?

[elk killer]

round looks the best, and is easier to shape the plug to,
you can find a old wood base ball bat, and cut it up to the size
that's close to the horn butt, they are easily worked down,

If a base ball bat isn't big enough, send me the size of the
shaping cone you need and I can turn one for you.

I usually drill the horn tip, then shape it from there, is  all kinds
of ways to do it, I'm sure a lot more will have different ideas

[Ky-Flinter]

......find a old wood base ball bat.......

Or a leg from a table or chair.  I found a great shaping cone at Lowe's.  They had it marked as a leg for a couch, but I knew what it really was.

-Ron

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Another method I have used for rounding is go to Lowes or to a craft store and buy you one of those small orange colored clay flower pots.  They are tapered to the right angle.  I have several different sizes and they generally cost a dollar or less.

As far as rounding goes it depends on what type of horn you are going to make.  If you are making a large "Golden Age" powder horn suitable for engraving then you will want to round it.  If you are making a rustic plain horn, then it may not be necessary. 

Coryjoe

[Tim Crosby]

A couple questions about horn shaping

1.  Should the butt of the horn be shaped to be uniformly round, more specifically, a period correct method?  I don't have a lathe to turn a shaping cone.  I do feel confident I can get a nice finish by working the wood with files and rasps for a good fit and finish without using a shaping cone.  Any advantages or disadvantages to not using a shaping cone?

2.  The spout of the horn is not perfectly round which is probably a common fact.  I used a compass in the centering hole for the drill bit to see how out of round it was.  Should I scrape the excess before starting to layout the panels or just work everything down and hope I can even out the panels as I go?

# 1. Is not an easy question to answer, some what depends on the style of horn you are making. If you don't have a lathe to turn a shaping cone then you wouldn't be able to turn the base round to fit. Yes, it can be done but is time consuming. Most original horns I have seen with a natural base are what I call a homemade horn, very simple architecture.
 To use the natural opening first work you horn down to shape, try and taper the horn uniformly along its entire length. You mentioned Panels, here is a Tutorial that may help you with that. You can shape the spout area before doing this or after. Try to get the base of the horn to as uniform thickness as possible. Once you have what you want make sure the base is square, a board with 80 grit sandpaper wrapped around it works well, set it on window to make sure. Then set it on a board, 3/4" will work but is a little thick. Trace around the horn, put witness marks on the horn and the base so you know where to put it together every time. You may want to orient the wood grain N-S or E-W, no tech reason it just looks better. Now using a Coping saw, if you have one, cut it out, on the line as close as possible. If you don't have a coping saw you can cut it square and rasp it out to the line. Still won't fit so take a pencil, and using your figure as a guide draw a line about 3/16" around the inside of the base. Now rasp front to back to that line, should be about a 10 deg taper all around. When your close take a soft pencil and darken the inside of the horn for about 1/2". Line up your witness marks and see if the base goes in the horn at all. If it does you will see graphite on it. File that off and reinsert, repeat, rubbing with pencil as needed, until the base fits to your liking, for a Domed top leave 1/4" or so standing proud. Put the base in, this is before attaching and blow in the tip, it should be air tight. If there is just a little leakage you can use glue, should seal things up and pins to hold the base in.

#2. The spout should be round or close to it, try for an even thickness around the hole.

 Kind of long but I hope it helps.

   Tim C.    

   http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=34423.0

[Top Jaw]

Cory beat me to the flower pot idea.   
If you decide to round it, (I like hot oil for that) I prefer to drill the tip first, so the oil doesn't get held back by  the air gap inside the horn.   When the tip is drilled it lets the air evacuate and the oil level is the same inside and out.  Makes for more even heating, and a better job, especially when you have one that needs a little extra incentive to reach a round shape.  Sometimes I do two roundings.  A rough one just to help work the horn down initially, and a final one to get to the final rounded shape. 

[horseman]

 When I made mine I used different sized drink cups from McDs, Arbys, Toco Bell, etc. and a box of Plaster of Paris.  The wax inside of the cups ment an easy release.  Be sure to wash the cups.

[toddsndrsn]

Thanks for the input.  I'm looking to turn this more into a F&I War style horn.  I've been playing around with the horn a bit.  I've started to shape the spout.  I think I am going to leave the butt as it is.  I have in something like page 79 of Recreating the 18th century powder horn.  Certainly open to suggestions on how to lay it out properly or about the proportions I've used thus far.  I'm not near ready to start carving on it, more planning and thought are needed.

[JohnnyFM]

I've heard about the hot oil method, but has anyone tried batter-dipped fried horn?     Just a wonderin'.....

[Top Jaw]

I would drill the tip before I did anymore shaping on it, as I'm sure your going to do.  Definitely before you start filing in any the octagon flats, or rings.  Sometimes that can alter your tip design slightly if you happen to be get close to the side when drilling.  You may need to lay out the octagon so that one of the points lands directly over the drilled hole where its nearest the surface.  This may prevent you from filing through it when cutting in the 8 flats.  Or perhaps you have to adjust your strap ring location to maintain the maximum thickness at that narrowest spot, if you had to drill closer to the outside horn wall than anticipated.

[Jerry P.]

Johnny, you want to use lard not oil when heating a horn. The temperature should be between 325* - 350*. At this temp, the horn will become pliable and take whatever shape your plug is. It dose not have to be round, make the horn fit your plug, not the other way around. You can do the same thing with a heat gun. Just heat it slowly and tap it on your bench to see if it is pliable and then put your plug in. I hope this is helpful.  Jerry

[toddsndrsn]

The tip is already drilled out.  I marked it with a punch then used a compass to mark a perimeter before drilling and scraping the tip.  I expected that  it would be what set the parameters for the shaping of the horn along with the thickness further down the horn.  I guess that thickness at the bottom of flats is a little more challenging to determine.  The strap ring is located just above where the cavity ends.  I think that I should move this up at least the width of the tape then reduce the thickness of the tape at the very tip for the top ring.  Suppose I'm paranoid about not having enough thickness at the bottom of the flats and breaking through the horn.

[Horner75]

Don't be worried about making a mistake here and there on your horn.  Some might not admit it, but 99% of us have made mistakes in about everything in the construction of a powder horn, rifle etc.  There is no one way, but only your way!  As to only using lard instead of cooking oil.  I have never really seen any difference and have used plain cooking oil for years with never a problem and it never goes rancid left on the bench in my Fry Daddy.

[Mikecooper]

you shouldn't have to worry too much about the flats breaking into the horn.  The walls of the horn get pretty thick as it approaches the end of the cavity.     

I don't have a lathe so I usually shape the plug to fit the horn. 

[Top Jaw]

For the flats your going to file in farther down on the throat..... if your concerned about wall thickness for filing 8 flats, you can gain a little more space by using 10 or 12 sides instead of 8.  Harder to lay out, but will work when you need to put flats on a thinner area of the horn.

[bigsmoke]

I am not a great fan of using a hand held drill, I much rather prefer a drill press.  However, I feed the horn into the drill bit rather than feeding the drill bit into the horn.
After cutting the tip off the horn, I just feed the horn into the bit quite lightly, making just a small dimple.  Then I inspect the tip to determine where the hole is going to be.  If I don't like the positioning, one can move it by just pushing the tip of the horn one way or another until you get the placement correct and to you liking.  Then drill the tip.
I took a piece of 7/16 or 1/2" dowel about 2 1/2" long and filed down a tenon that would just fit slightly loose.  Insert that into the horn then draw a pencil mark around it on the tip of the horn.  That makes a very nice diameter for a powder horn.  The 7/16 is good for primers.
Of course, YMMV.  And I realize that just because that is the way I do it, not everyone else will.
But, what do I know about making powder horns?

John

[toddsndrsn]

Here are a few photos of what I accomplished so far.

[Mikecooper]

It's looking good so far! 

[Tim Crosby]

 FWIW it looks like you have a Lot still to remove at the neck and tip. It, the tip,  should be thin maybe 1/8 to 3 1/16ths. Think about filling a measure with it.

  Tim C.

[skillman]

Like building guns, a very hard part with horns is getting enough material off. As Tim said, Think about filling the measure. If this is to be used with a flintlock, think about getting the tip into the pan to prime the gun. Too thin makes it fragile. Too thick makes it hard to use.
If you study originals that really speak to you, you'll see that there are some obvious shared traits that you like. Figure these out. Try to incorporate them into your horns. You'll find that just like women there are things that appeal to you. Not all horns, even the great ones, appeal to your eye. Try to find your favorite features and embrace them.

Steve

[Tim Crosby]

 Horn selection makes a Big difference in the type of horn that can be made. It looks like on this one the tip is cut to short to start with, that is why it looks so thick. You may not be able to get the proportions right on that horn. Can we see a shot of the base opening?
 Do not over-engineer it. Just trying to help, BTDT.

  Tim C.

[toddsndrsn]

Tim,  I'm still thinning the horn down.  I had planned a rounded tip.  I estimated the wall thickness on the flats to be in the neighborhood of 1/8".  The horn is thin below on the lower part of the flats.  Unfortunately, I did not pick this horn nor did I really understand what I was getting into when a friend of my dad told me he was going to pick one up for me.  I  took off less than a 1/2" when I cut it initially.   The horn was very fat and rounded.  I was going for something similar to what is on Page 72 of "Recreating the 18th Century Powder Horn." Constructive criticism is always appreciated when learning a new craft.  So please make all the suggestions and recommendations you like and I will see how I can apply them.  I'll take some pictures when I get home from work.

[Tim Crosby]

 Ok, now I've got the idea, you still may be able to get there.

   Tim C.