how to age metal

[Dphariss]

A 15 year old gun does not look like its 150-200. So boiling parts in chlorox (or what ever happens to be the current fad) is not going to produce a representative piece for a 15 year old used gun.

Like everything ese it depends on how applied and how controlled - clorox/blue can be controlled to vary the look from used to abused......

all three were etched using the cold blue method - ignore the spines as they were left with an as  forged finish - the middle blade is an example how lightly one can use the method, while that on the left is a heavy etch and the right in between...
As with most things there are different methods to achieve the same ends and there is no single right way.
As to 15 years wear - all depends on how one's gun was used and cared for - as a knifemaker for close to 40 years , I've had folks send back knives of the same age for refurbishing and the differences in use/abuse can be substantial......

I have a knife that is 25 years old maybe a year either way. Made of O-1. It has some discoloration and it still has the fire marks from the back toward the edge from the coal fire when heating it for hardening.
I have inadvertently left it (and another carbon steel knife or two over the years) FOR YEAR 10-12 months, one season to the next, in the sheath with fat and such from the last animal I used it on STILL ON IT. I consider this abuse. You know what? Its not pitted. Looks NOTHING like the pictured blades. In fact the fat, which gets on every knife used for butchering or field dressing game with much body fat, PROTECTS THE BLADE. Thus I find it difficult to believe that a hunter that used his knife for this purpose is going to see it pit to the extent seen here. Or as farmer who cut bacon etc etc etc. The use coats the blade with material that helps protect it.
But I don't store it in a boat bottom or in the cat litter pan or intentionally screw it up.
A knife pitted to this extent (or left as forged) is a PITA to clean or use. I would either grind it smooth or find something that was still smooth to replace it with. If you are cutting meat the the pits and roughness make the work harder.
This tells me that people that want this sort of thing use the knife as an ornament rather than a tool.

Dan

[tg]

Well. I'm done here, can't see any point in going any farther, I think I will go outside and throw rocks at the squirrels

[Chuck Burrows]

Dan as always you're right nobody knows as much as you do or has your vast experience so there is no need to discuss anything once you enter the conversation - heck we just might as well all sit at your feet and listen to the guru........one final note though for the other folks who just might be interested - I've sold plenty of knives built like that to folks who know knives and know how to put put them to good use over the last forty years - they never seemed to have the problems you imagine - as for leaving fat on the blade - well maybe but blood will eat a blade up right well....

got agree tg - only thing is right now the wind is gusting to 60mph so those rocks would probably get thrown back in my face.....

[Leatherbelly]

   A few weeks ago I was sterilizing some items in my kitchen sink using a few ounces of bleach to half a sink full of hot water. My carbon carving knife got left in the sink over night and in the morning I pulled it out.To my surprise,the ten inch blade turned as black as the handle.A little rust started to show on it an hour later so I scuffed it with some baking soda and a scotch-brite. No pits,just a nicely patena'ed darkened blade. This knife is ear-marked for my bag knife,love it.

[roundball]

Its a learned skill.....

To develop the ability to share some knowledge one may have through actual hands on experience, but stopping short of the editorial comments that unfortunatey comes across as negative and condesending...completely takes away from what otherwise might be valuable technical information.

Most individuals learn this, others never seem to...the trend is apparent no matter the subject, whether it's bore butter, or knives, or having a Flintlock built without a patchbox, etc.....if something is not personally chosen and used by some individuals, they seem to struggle to be able to simply offer a different experience without including comments aimed at putting down someone else's choice...

[hanshi]

If you think about it, a hunter/farmer in 1770 who has a gun built in 1760 will not have a gun that looks 200 years old; he'll have a gun that looks 10 years old but looks USED.  If your persona is from 1770 and you want an OLD looking gun then the gun would have to be in the style from 1570. 

A nicely used flint or cap gun automatically looks kinda old, anyway, doesn't it?  If well used is the look you're after, then anything that imparts signs of use would seem (to me) kosher.

A truly old gun will have wood pulling away from the fitted metal, cracks and dinged up barrel, etc.  I don't want that in any of my guns.  Used, now, that's a different story.  There's a certain "majesty" in a well maintained and cared for piece (modern or muzzle) that shows good, comfortable and honest wear. 

I've never bothered myself much about it but have tried various things on brass and steel.  Just shooting will darken brass rod tips and nose caps.  Fouling place on butt plate, trigger guard, etc. will do the same.  I do these thing purely for practical reasons and not to "age" the piece necessarily.  I don't claim to know that much about the old guns but just thought I'd bring up a couple of points of logic to cogitate over.  JMHO and other may disagree. 

[littlefat]

Thank's for all the help guys !    Wofat

[bob in the woods]

My great Uncle's Snider, was his main gun...he shot a lot of moose with it. It spent a good amount of time outside; most of that in the bottom of a boat/canoe. The rest of the time it was standing/leaning up in the tool shed. This gun has been used hard, and is well over 100 years old, but not look anywhere
close to the artificially aged flintlocks I've seen. I happen to like the look of some of these, and can appreciate that others do too. On the other hand, I can't bring myself to believe that they look "authentic"  If you are so inclined, take a look at a "cloroxed" gun, and then compare it to an aged gun that Eric Kettenburg made. They don't look the same, and I happen to think that his look more "real"
In the end, I guess it's a matter of opinion, and those aren't in short supply!   I make what ever sells!

[Joe S]

I find the juxtaposition of aged metal and new wood artistically incongruous. 

For some reason, we will rust and pit our metal, but I don’t recall ever seeing a discussion on how to age wood.  We’ll clorox our barrels, but nobody seems to be willing to scratch and dent a 400 grit finish.

I’ve fiddled around with aging metal and wood quite a bit, and have come to the conclusion that it is an art form in it’s own right.  I like aged guns, especially EK’s “fakes”, but there are very few people who can actually pull it off.  Although I’ve worked at it a fair amount, my results on test scraps of wood and metal look amateurish to me, so I’ve decided to leave it alone, at least until EK writes a book on the topic.

[Dphariss]

Dan as always you're right nobody knows as much as you do or has your vast experience so there is no need to discuss anything once you enter the conversation - heck we just might as well all sit at your feet and listen to the guru........one final note though for the other folks who just might be interested - I've sold plenty of knives built like that to folks who know knives and know how to put put them to good use over the last forty years - they never seemed to have the problems you imagine - as for leaving fat on the blade - well maybe but blood will eat a blade up right well....

got agree tg - only thing is right now the wind is gusting to 60mph so those rocks would probably get thrown back in my face.....

I think that to bolster your position you should address the issue. What people buy today often has nothing to do with what is HC.

Yes blood is bad. But it comes right off, the fat does not. It sticks on the blade and tends to displace the corrosive stuff.

Dan

[Dphariss]

This is a 150+- year old gun that has seen probably 5-20 years of *assumed* frontier use then a long time in storage.
It was apparently varnished with the typical gunstock varnish of the time as opposed to oil finished.

Note its appearance. Compare to the "aged" guns people find popular.
Note the iron parts are not etched or deeply pitted. Note they are all well finished.
Note that it does not appear to have been beaten with a log chain.
This is what I have been trying to explain.

The "Bridger Hawken"





This is a used trade gun. Note the lack of etching of the metal. Note the lack of "bash marks".


This is a beaver trap that was likely buried in the ground or in the mud of some stream for a period of time.


Note the difference in the actual used guns and the "abused" trap.

Dan

[hanshi]

Zactly!  What's wrong with FW&T?  Abuse a gun?  Never!  Personally, I've always liked my "new" to hang on as long as possible.

[Joe S]

Excellent photos Dan.  Just out of curiosity, do you think you could reproduce the aging in both wood and metal?

[Dphariss]

Excellent photos Dan.  Just out of curiosity, do you think you could reproduce the aging in both wood and metal?

Good question. To the level of the trade gun....
The metal would be fairly easy but it needs to start with a finish and the proper metal prep, IE the right level of polish. The wood is going to require completely finishing to new then abrading the finish. This would have to be done dry and would require probably 0000 steel wool and then maybe rottenstone.
Metal probably rotten stone or similar to break the finish. If you wanted wear on the metal, slight blurring of the corners of the flats then use something like 1500 grit wet or dry then maybe add some dings and scratches then treat it with some mild acid or maybe lye to "grey" the metal.

The problem is that this sort of thing often leads the ager to do things he should not and then they eventually end up with a damaged reputation from faking something. There is ALWAYS some risk that the article will be faked by some owner and sold to the unwary no matter what its state when the maker finishes it. Just making something in the HC manner or even just crudely can result in this even if its touchmarked or signed. Its very irritating when its YOUR name in the top flat.
The only guns I ever aged I did for a Hollywood project and they added too it somewhat after the guns arrived on set. But they did follow my lead and simply built on it.
I see a lot of this as silliness, sorry no intent to insult. But I got a call from a long time builder about noon today and this subject came up and he cut in and basically said its "BS".
If someone wants to play 1770s just get a 1770s rifle. No crime in it being new or nearly so.
If you age a 1750-55s rifle to play 1770 then its too old for 1750-55 if you want to "regress".

If I wanted to age a rifle for make it look slightly used I would likely use rottenstone on a dry rag to break the finish somewhat and show some use. Going to the extent of aging with dents and dings and rust is just too much for me.
But as I stated if you want some corrosion on steel parts try some perchlorate powder fouling (just flash it on some surface don't shoot it. The dab the dampened fouling in a couple of places that are likely to rust. Check daily. But you need to wash with hot water to stop the stuff when you reach the proper level of pit or rust.

I might also add that I made some crude forged stuff years ago. 2  crude "poor boys" one of which is still out there but by the time I was 19-20 I pretty well realized that this was basically just sloppy work and things needed a better finish if I were making them.
But thats just me and people can make anything anyway they like.

Dan

[Lucky R A]

     A area of aging seeming overlooked in this whole discussion is that of restoration.  While I occasionally like to build a gun that looks very much like an original that I have copied( down to cracks, dents and nicks, even old repairs) I use aging techniques in restoration.  This area or aging involves both metal and wood, and can be very demanding.  It requires making repairs and ageing them to the level of the rest of the gun.  That gun may be an extremely well cared for 200 or more old gun, or one that was subjected to the worst that time and lack of care handed to it.  (The kind that arrive at the shop in a brown paper bag and a barrel that was shortened on both ends.)
Aging has a legitimate place in the gun building genre.  The technique of aging is not right or wrong, but the intent of its use may  be.   Ron

[Joe S]

Lucky – if you ever write a treatise on aging wood, I’d sure be interested in reading it.

In my experiments with aging wood and metal, I tried a couple of techniques I haven’t seen discussed here, so I thought I’d mention them in case someone wants to give them a try.

Concentrated hydrogen peroxide is great for removing the finish.  You can remove the finish to any degree desired, so that if you wanted to create a wear area, you could remove the finish completely in the high wear spot, and then feather it back to unworn finish.  It also turns maple the exact yellow color that you see on old oxidized maple, like along the ridges of the cheek piece.  You can get concentrated hydrogen peroxide at any well stocked health food store.  DO NOT get this stuff on your fingers.

The other technique is using electrolysis for aging metal.  Hook a battery charger up to the piece you want to age, using the piece as the anode and a steel rod for the cathode, and stick both in a water bath.  Add a little salt to the water.  The speed of the electrolysis is easily controlled by adjusting the distance between the cathode and the anode.  You can get anything from a light surface patina to a heavily eroded surface like Dan’s trap photo.

I have not examined enough originals to say that this will reproduce the exact same finish that natural aging does, but I think it is very close. 

[Leatherbelly]

  Drag it behind the manure spreader! Just kidding,LOL.

[Don Getz]

I have seen where people use mustard to age steel parts.    Can anyone explain how this is done.   I have a real neat
folding knife by Bob Harn and he told me the blade was colored with mustard, it really look good.  On my current gun I
have a Walter Cain siler lock, polished, and would like to lightly color, or age it.  What's the process?   thanks......Don

[Mike R]

I've been looking at a lot of custom rifles and most of the barrels don't look blued or browned. they look sort of gray . how is this done ? anyone know ? 

this was the original question--in case we have forgotten--my take was different than the discussion has drifted--he did not ask about aging, let alone extreme aging.  There is a finish called French Gray and there is the simple graying of plain polished steel--as in a knife blade --when new bright, when used a few times = gray.  When I get a polished bright new gun or knife and want it to look like it has been used a few times, I "gray it".  It can be done one of several ways, simple or complex, but basically you just "tarnish" the steel a bit to take off the new shine--I use mustard as often as not, but brass black works well too....

[Mike R]

I have seen where people use mustard to age steel parts.    Can anyone explain how this is done.   I have a real neat
folding knife by Bob Harn and he told me the blade was colored with mustard, it really look good.  On my current gun I
have a Walter Cain siler lock, polished, and would like to lightly color, or age it.  What's the process?   thanks......Don

very simple, however the exact technique can be varied to achieve varied "patterns"--e.g., fake damascus.  On a blade I just spread mustard out of the jar with a finger tip, let sit a few  minutes and clean off with water--you will get a 'pattern' depending on how you spread the mustard--if you want a even gray you need to reapply until all areas are even--if you want a 'damascus look, dab the blade with a finger tip and do not smooth--or you can streak the blade depending on pattern.

[Acer Saccharum]

Plochman's or Grey Poupon?

[Mike R]

Plochman's or Grey Poupon?

French's

[Acer Saccharum]

I imagine you could get a similar pattern with salt and vinegar, in a paste of sawdust. Doesn't work so good on hotdawgs, tho.

Tom

[tg]

"If you age a 1750-55s rifle to play 1770 then its too old for 1750-55 if you want to "regress".

That is one of the larger piles of K-rap you have graciously laid at or feet, if that is true how do you explain the conversion of rev war period flinters to percussion ?

[rich pierce]

Any trip to a junk shop, flea market or scrap yard in the east, south, or midwest will readily educate folks on what aged metal looks like.  Your mileage may vary in the desert.  When we speculate on how arms "wore" or "aged" during their useful lifetime, ordinary tools found in a barn or toolshed may be instructive, noting, of course, that some tools are subjected to more corrosive materials than others.  Manure, for example, on a shovel versus grain on a metal scoop.

But perhaps more informative are lamentations by George Washington and other army generals of the Revolutionary War about the sad state of repair and integrity of militia muskets brought by troops early in that war.  It's unlikely that many of those militia guns had experienced more than 50 years of use at the time.

(maybe not an informative illustration) My father in law bought a 94 Winchester new in 1948 and by the time I first saw it in 1969, it looked like it had won (or maybe lost) the West.  It was carried around in pickups, on tractors, and stood up in corners in the barn and sheds in good and bad weather for just over 20 years, and most of the bluing was gone and the wood was dried out and the finish worn off in wear places.  Pitting was concentrated around the sights, joints, etc that would collect and hold moisture.  If he'd been shooting black powder or spent many nights outdoors it may have been much worse.