Touch Hole Question

[BartSr]

I am building a .22 cal flintlock rifle, "just because".  The barrel is inlet and may be a hook-breech if all goes well.

The barrel is a unused 10-22 lay-around.  I have removed the .22 cal chamber extension and D&T'd the barrel for 3/8-16.  Then drilled a 1/16 inch touch hole about 1/8 inch in front of that plug.  I have made a flat on the right side of the barrel for the lock to meet-up to the touch hole.

Here's my question: Will the flintlock flash flame/heat reach through the (approximate) 1/4 inch long touch hole to ignite the main charge?

What should I do next? (Remembering that the bore is only .22 inches)

I will appreciate all of your kind words and suggestions. 

BartSr

[PPatch]

On a previous .36 cal with a "A" swamped profile I drilled a 1/16" touch hole and purposely didn't install a Chambers White Lighting touch hole liner. I wanted to try it that way to see the difference between a liner and not. It misfired quite a bit, was generally trouble that way, I opened the hole a bit, same problem. Eventually I installed a liner and bingo, never a problem afterwards.

Try it the way you have it but you may end up having better results with a liner installed. 1/4 inch is a lot thicker than that "A" profile barrel wall.

dave

[Bill Paton]

In addition, the rate of twist on that 10-.22 barrel is much faster than ML barrels, and may result in balls stripping the rifling and acting like smooth bores. Very light charges may help. Please post us your loads and results at the target range!

Bill Paton

[BartSr]

In addition, the rate of twist on that 10-.22 barrel is much faster than ML barrels, and may result in balls stripping the rifling and acting like smooth bores. Very light charges may help. Please post us your loads and results at the target range!

Bill Paton

Bill,
Will do.  Probably start with 15 grains 3Fg Goex.
If I use a 1/4-28 liner won't that greatly enlarge my powder chamber? 
I'm thinking about the concave area inside of the lliner compared to the actual chamber.  Oh, well.

BartSr

[bob in the woods]

Would one of those two piece pull type bevel drills work ?  [Sold by a member of this site for internally chamfering a touch hole ]

[frogwalking]

I am going to add that not only is the twist too tight, but the grooves are generally very shallow.  I would think a starting load for this rifle would be closer to 5 or 6 grains than 15.  I would use a .22 short or long case for a powder measure.  The tendency to strip may be severe.  Having said go for it.  In the old days, I had several flintlocks with a direct drilled vent.  since we didn't know any better, they seemed to work fine.  Some work, some don't.  I have no idea why.

[BartSr]

Would one of those two piece pull type bevel drills work ?  [Sold by a member of this site for internally chamfering a touch hole ]

I am ignorant of this device, please explain.  Thanks!

BartSr

[Bob Roller]

In addition, the rate of twist on that 10-.22 barrel is much faster than ML barrels, and may result in balls stripping the rifling and acting like smooth bores. Very light charges may help. Please post us your loads and results at the target range!

Bill Paton

An OLD rule with shooting round balls in fast twists was
"Charge it light,patch it tight". We had a friend whose
small  8 and 9 years old grandsons wanted to shoot my
Whitworth and I used a .445 ball patched with denim and
35 grains of DuPont 3fg. Worked fine and two little boys
got to fire a fine muzzle loader.

Bob Roller

[Hungry Horse]

 I have been pondering a similar project. The barrel I am using is a blank that has not been turned to its final outside demension, or chambered. I bought a couple of stainless 1/4-28 bolts, and am working on a miniature version of a white lightning liner. Most .22's have a 14 twist, which isn't all that fast for a ball that small. I have also considered having a mold made to produce an elongated bullet for this rifle that if cast from a harder alloy might give good performance.

  Hungry Horse

[Bob Roller]

I have been pondering a similar project. The barrel I am using is a blank that has not been turned to its final outside demension, or chambered. I bought a couple of stainless 1/4-28 bolts, and am working on a miniature version of a white lightning liner. Most .22's have a 14 twist, which isn't all that fast for a ball that small. I have also considered having a mold made to produce an elongated bullet for this rifle that if cast from a harder alloy might give good performance.

  Hungry Horse

This is odd. I also have been tinkering with the idea of a .22 caliber muzzle loading pistol.
Lyman at one time made moulds for these bullets in various lengths and weights.
I have a section of a Marlin microgroove barrel and also have a 25 caliber finished ML pistol
barrel I made up in 1979 from a piece of a .257 Douglas barrel. It is breeched for percussion with a one
piece bolster breech and revolver nipple.It's octagon and muzzle turned for a guide starter.
When I was in high school,I made two 22 caliber ML rifles. One for a friend who is a retired airline pilot
and one for E.M.Farris. This was in 1954.I made a 4 cavity mould and used little paper patched bullets
in the first one and lubed Lyman bullets in the other one.
8 grains of 4fg will move those little bullets quickly.

Bob Roller

[Daryl]

I'd always thought the standard RF twist was 16" for .22 LR - with 24" being 'standard' for .22 Short.
The rifling is normally .002" deep.

Just did a quick check on rimfire general forum.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520327

"It seems to me that almost all .22 barrels use a 1 in 16" twist. Except for special purpose heavy ammo I wonder if others have tried different twist rates?
I have read that part of the reason HV ammo is less accurate than SV is due to the fact that HV passes through the speed of sound and slows down to subsonic. During this transition the bullet is less stable. I wonder if a faster twist rate could change this?"

And

" Some benchrest/smallbore shooters use 1:16.5 and 1:17 twist barrels, and slower. On top of that, some Suhl 150s were made with 1:19 twist barrels and I had one of them- it shot poorly in temps below 60 degrees but was decent otherwise. On the flip side I've read of some Remington rifles (40x? 541? 540x?) with faster twist rates."

[Tim Crosby]

 Not traditional but would a .22 Pellet work? With the hollow base I would think it would expand into the rifling easily, similar to a Mine Ball. Some have little groves in them that would hold a touch of lube.
 As for the touch hole, I would think a 1/4 X 1/4 X 28 stainless set screw inserted backwards would work fine.

  Tim C.

[BartSr]

Not traditional but would a .22 Pellet work? With the hollow base I would think it would expand into the rifling easily, similar to a Mine Ball. Some have little groves in them that would hold a touch of lube.
 As for the touch hole, I would think a 1/4 X 1/4 X 28 stainless set screw inserted backwards would work fine.

  Tim C.

Good words Tim.  I was told not to do this (another forum) because blah-blah-blah.  I also was going to use those .22 "shuttlecock" pellets, why not?    
Thanks for the answer about the set screw! (out he goes to the Ace store) 

BartSr

[Hungry Horse]

 The hunting pellets do not have the thin skirts the "shuttlecock" type have and will take a heavier charge without deforming.

  Hungry Horse

[BartSr]

Not traditional but would a .22 Pellet work? With the hollow base I would think it would expand into the rifling easily, similar to a Mine Ball. Some have little groves in them that would hold a touch of lube.
 As for the touch hole, I would think a 1/4 X 1/4 X 28 stainless set screw inserted backwards would work fine.

  Tim C.

Good words Tim.  I was told not to do this (another forum) because blah-blah-blah.  I also was going to use those .22 "shuttlecock" pellets, why not?    
Thanks for the answer about the set screw! (out he goes to the Ace store) 

BartSr

Easily done.

BartSr

[Hungry Horse]

Industry standard is 1 in 14" for a .22 cal. Barrel. Slower twists are available for custom barrels. My barrel is designed to be a replacement barrel.

  Hungry Horse

[bob in the woods]

The coning tool is made by Tom Snyder.

[David R. Pennington]

I don't think Tom' internal coning tool would work on this one. Remember we are talking .22 here. The bore diameter has to be at least as large as the length of the conong burr as it is inserted sideways through the breach. Unless he makes a super miniature one? I have used mine on rifles from .62 to .45 and really like it but don't think it would work here.
How about slightly coning on outside? With small bore and light charges this might work?

[bob in the woods]

I this case, the barrel wall is pretty thick. A slight cone on the exterior wouldn't do much IMO  Perhaps one of those "hex" keyed vents would work.  They act as a fairly substantial external cone

[Daryl]

Pellets such as the H&N Barracuda have quite a thick skirt which should limit skirt expansion problems that thin skirts would possibly produce from muzzleblast.
The problem with air rifle pellets is that the shuttle-cock shape usually doesn't shoot well as super-sonic or Tran-sonic speeds - that is, anything over 1,000fps.

https://www.dlairgun.com/Pellets/HN/093_Baracuda_Hunter_Extreme.html

Due to their shape and heavier-yet weight, the EunJin pellets might be even better.

https://www.specialtyshootingsportsoutdoors.com/air-gun-pellets/eunjin.html

if you could keep them under 1,000fps, pellets might be better than patched round balls, otherwise not.

[BartSr]

OK, that funny touch hole "liner" does work.  Went to the range today and was able to get off 4 shots.
25 yards, 10gr of Goex FFFg, .22 cal pellets.

I looked at NAA for blackpowder .22 "bullets".  These look good to me.
https://northamericanarms.com/shop/parts/cbb1/

Top of that target, about 10 to 11 inches above the POA.


I did have trouble with not enough sparks with that "used" frizzen after the first three shots, argh.

BartSr

[Daryl]

Interesting bullets - something that would hold some lube might be better.
https://www.dlairgun.com/Pellets/JSB/049_Diabolo_Straton_Jumbo_Monster.html
https://www.dlairgun.com/Pellets/JSB/024_Diabolo_Exact_Jumbo_Monster.html

This might even be better.

https://www.dlairgun.com/Pellets/JSB/024_Diabolo_Exact_Jumbo_Monster.html

[BartSr]

Interesting bullets - something that would hold some lube might be better.
https://www.dlairgun.com/Pellets/JSB/049_Diabolo_Straton_Jumbo_Monster.html
https://www.dlairgun.com/Pellets/JSB/024_Diabolo_Exact_Jumbo_Monster.html

This might even be better.

https://www.dlairgun.com/Pellets/JSB/024_Diabolo_Exact_Jumbo_Monster.html

Daryl,
Thank You, these look good.

BartSr

[Dphariss]

In addition, the rate of twist on that 10-.22 barrel is much faster than ML barrels, and may result in balls stripping the rifling and acting like smooth bores. Very light charges may help. Please post us your loads and results at the target range!

Bill Paton

Bill,
Will do.  Probably start with 15 grains 3Fg Goex.
If I use a 1/4-28 liner won't that greatly enlarge my powder chamber? 
I'm thinking about the concave area inside of the lliner compared to the actual chamber.  Oh, well.

BartSr

Buy a 10x32 stainless screw and make a liner from that  Or use a piece of stainless rod and thread it for 1/8" pipe thread if you want to buy the tap and die. If you use 10-32 you can counter bore it about 3/32 after drilling it deeper than the barrel wall about .060, in this bore size you could try .050 to start. I would not go too large with a 22 though someone here may know better than I. In a 22 FFFF could be used for the main charge.   Drill the counter bore planning to end up with a .040 (max) web next to the pan. Drill the barrel 3/32 then drill it tap drill size within about .040"-.030" of the bore. Adjust the liner length to bottom in the hole and give a web at least .020 next to the pan. You could, with a counter bore of the right size use a larger thread diameter for the liner but the piloted counter bore is going to cost more than you want to pay..... Use a 135 degree drill for the tap drill. By seating it against the shoulder its possible to use a 10x32 screw and not have to fit it against a shoulder at the barrel surface to prevent leakage. Do you plan to file a flat on the barrel at the point the lock bolster will contact? It will be needed to keep powder out of the lock inlet.

[BartSr]

In addition, the rate of twist on that 10-.22 barrel is much faster than ML barrels, and may result in balls stripping the rifling and acting like smooth bores. Very light charges may help. Please post us your loads and results at the target range!

Bill Paton

Bill,
Will do.  Probably start with 15 grains 3Fg Goex.
If I use a 1/4-28 liner won't that greatly enlarge my powder chamber?  
I'm thinking about the concave area inside of the lliner compared to the actual chamber.  Oh, well.

BartSr

Buy a 10x32 stainless screw and make a liner from that  Or use a piece of stainless rod and thread it for 1/8" pipe thread if you want to buy the tap and die. If you use 10-32 you can counter bore it about 3/32 after drilling it deeper than the barrel wall about .060, in this bore size you could try .050 to start. I would not go too large with a 22 though someone here may know better than I. In a 22 FFFF could be used for the main charge.   Drill the counter bore planning to end up with a .040 (max) web next to the pan. Drill the barrel 3/32 then drill it tap drill size within about .040"-.030" of the bore. Adjust the liner length to bottom in the hole and give a web at least .020 next to the pan. You could, with a counter bore of the right size use a larger thread diameter for the liner but the piloted counter bore is going to cost more than you want to pay..... Use a 135 degree drill for the tap drill. By seating it against the shoulder its possible to use a 10x32 screw and not have to fit it against a shoulder at the barrel surface to prevent leakage. Do you plan to file a flat on the barrel at the point the lock bolster will contact? It will be needed to keep powder out of the lock inlet.

yes, I filed a flat on the barrel, wider than 1/4 inch.
Thanks for the idea of short threading of the liner threads, that would seal it a lot better than what I have now.  Maybe I should look around for another 10-22 barrel, and maybe a bit longer than the 18 inch current one.

BartSr

P.S. I thought I had posted a picture, but guess not.