Inlay question

[Mikecooper]

How would you inlay a small irregular shape piece of metal.   Like if I were to cut out the design on a coin and inlet that.   I wouldn't want to put a nail through it or mar the surface in any way.   Would not want to use a modern glue like epoxy.    You guys got any ideas? 

[Scota4570]

If you don't want to nail it then it is not traditional construction.  Why the opposition to using modern glue? 

You could use nails made of the same type of metal as the inlay.  If done right they are invisible.

[bob in the woods]

Usually, I would hammer the coin silver much thinner than the original thickness before cutting out an inlay, which allows me to bevel the edges and bend the inlay enough , to inlet it "proud" in the centre and then hammer it flat which locks it in.  For what you want to do, I have in the past , soldered a post on the back, inlet the inlay, and then run a pin through the stock, and post/lug . Running the pin up though the bottom of the cheek [ if that's where your inlay is located, is pretty much un-noticable

[jerrywh]

 Sometimes when installing a thumb piece I solder a lug on the bottom and put a screw up from the bottom from under the trigger guard.  If you were doing an inlay on a cheek piece you could do the same thing from the other side inside of the patch box cavity. Some original European inlays on stocks never had anything holding them in. They fit so tight they just stayed there.  I have done some that way also. This may sound strange but egg yoke will hold pretty tight especially with cream in it. Put some ice cream on some wood and let it dry. It is very hard to remove. Micheal Angelo made a lot of his paint from eggs and it is still on the surfaces he painted hundreds of years ago. Experiment.  That's how we all learn.
 

[Mikecooper]

   Regarding using modern glue,  I have seen epoxied items come loose. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hyper historically correct type but would prefer to use old methods when possible. 

I like the idea of soldering a post to the back of it.  I think maybe with a post pushed into a slightly undersized hole drilled into the wood.  That plus the linseed oil soaking in and sort of sealing it.  That may hold pretty good.

 The reason for not wanting to use a nail is that would mess up the design on the front of it.

Here is a picture of something like what I had in mind.   

[Mike Brooks]

I think I'd skip something like that. Just my opinion  of course.

[Long John]

Mike,

I suspect that the center of each of those flowers is a nail head that was engraved to hide it.  That's what I would do.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Mikecooper]

I guess a nail in the center of each is possible.  Not sure how it was done.   That kind of miniature work would be beyond my ability for now.   Maybe someday. 

[davec2]

I often do as Jerrywh notes with a tapped hollow lug on the back of the inlay and a screw from the opposite side with the head hidden under something.  I have also silver soldered pins on the back of an inlay, cut some slight notches in the pins with a jewelers file, and then drilled holes to receive the pins in the bottom of the inlay cavity.  I often use AcraGlass to fill the holes and then insert the inlay pins.  I have also used melted pitch (very traditional material) and if you have ever tried to get a part you were engraving out of a pitch bowl, you will have a lot of confidence on the adhesion to the pins on the back of a well fitting inlay.

Forgot to mention....sometimes instead of pins, I solder one or two tiny flat head wood screws on the back of the inlay.  Saves me the time of making pins and cutting notches.  Of course, the screws don't get turned in, the just have the threads that get held by the pitch or AcraGlass.  Here are a couple of patch box lid inlays done this way....the fist one is cast silver and is carved in bas relief and stands proud of the surface.  The second one in brass, is filed flush with the surface after installation and then engraved.

[jerrywh]

 Long John makes a good point. Many original inlays in high art guns had nails that were incorporated into the design. This is one that I incorporated the nail into the design.
 

[P.W.Berkuta]

Long John makes a good point. Many original inlays in high art guns had nails that were incorporated into the design. This is one that I incorporated the nail into the design.
 

VERY NICE work Jerry .

[Mikecooper]

wow those are some nice looking inlays.     

Are there instructions here somewhere for making pitch?  or is that something you can purchase?

Looking back at the inlay on my rifle,  it is part of a coin and when I compare it to an unaltered coin, this one does not appear to have the design altered at all which I think means there is no nail penetrating the front.   My best guess is that it's glued in but dang that's a good fit.  Looks like the wood grew around it. 

[davec2]

I buy it from here:

https://www.riogrande.com/Product/Medium-Red-Chasers-Pitch/118265

But if you want to make pitch (instead of guns), you can do this from pine sap:

http://www.primitiveways.com/pine_pitch_stick.html

[jerrywh]

 Mikecooper
  The reason it fits so good is they probably drove it in. Some of the commercially produced guns for sale today had some parts that were driven into the wood cavity.  Note how hard a taper holds in a lathe center. Inlays driven into a tapered cavity will hold very tight for many years, especially after the finish is applied.  

[Scota4570]

If glue is ok to use  and it is just about being secure, you can also rough up the back with a graver.  Leave miniature teeth , like  rasp.  Then epoxy it in place. 

IF the fit is too tight you stand a chance of busting out a chip of wood. 

[Pete G.]

FWIW: Before I knew how a nosecap was "supposed" to be installed I used epoxy. I reasoned that this would help reinforce a very thin area and give some extra support to the cap. In all three instances the cap held for about 20 years plus or minus. I suspect that the differential expansion between the wood and metal was eventually more than the glue could stand.

[Keithbatt]

I buy it from here:

https://www.riogrande.com/Product/Medium-Red-Chasers-Pitch/118265

But if you want to make pitch (instead of guns), you can do this from pine sap:

http://www.primitiveways.com/pine_pitch_stick.html

So I just was camping in a pine forest this past weekend and decided to try the traditional method to make pitch as described in the link that Davec2 posted above.

Some notes if you have never done this before:  fill a can about halfway with sap, any more and it may be prone to boiling over (ask me how I know).   You must boil the sap until it darkens and is smoking hot, or it doesn't filter easily from the first can into your receptacle. 

I ended up with this after only a little work and some sticky hands.   The photo looks like the can is mostly empty, it's about 2" deep at the bottom and that's a large size can (which had previously held my baked beans dinner).   I have not processed the pitch by adding anything to it as described in the link.  I'm not sure how or what I'm going to use it for, but it was fun gathering and processing it.

[M. E. Pering]

For those who don't believe that glue was used in those days for certain things, I am sorry to disappoint you.  Adhesives have been used since the ancient Egyptians for woodworking.  Hide glue to be specific, and very commonly used and available in colonial America.  I have seen pictures of objects made in the late 18th century that had missing bits of inlay, and though they were not objects made for outdoor use, they still had no other fasteners other than the adhesive.

That being said, nails were often used in conjunction with adhesives to hold an inlay in place.  X-rays do show these well-hidden nails, but there is also evidence of hide glue as well.  Hide glue is very water pervious, however, it seems the finish was relied upon to prevent this from effecting it. 

Matt

[Mikecooper]

There are lots of pines here in Georgia so I may try the homemade pitch.   

regarding glue,  not only hide glue but also casein glue has been used for hundreds of years and it is more water resistant than hide glue.   Epoxy however is a more modern invention. 

[davec2]

Mike,

I understand that there are many who don't care to use epoxy (or any comparable modern material) for anything.  I'm apparently not so picky.  Redheart said in a post not long ago, "I just hate that there's a blob of modern stuff on my smokepole, whether I can see it or not."  I posted back...." You mean like a 12L14 CNC machined barrel......or an investment cast 4140 and 6150 alloy lock with screw machine made screws and a cast 1095 frizzen.....or commercially produced 360 alloy sheet brass patch box and ram rod pipes.......or wood finished with Fornby's or Chambers or Permalyn....or.......well, you get my point."  These guns all LOOK like they came out of the late 18th and early 19th century, but who are we kidding...really.  

[frogwalking]

  Touché!

[David Price]

I have inlaid a lot of silver wire and inlays over the years and have never nailed or glued
them in place.  The wire and inlays that I put in are around .040 deep and fit very tight with
just a suggestion of a tapper on the back of the inlays so that they will start in without breaking
the edge of the opening.  I don't roughen up the wire, just set it in deep.  I use Permalyn Sealer for the finish and depend on the finish to do the work of glue.  On curved surfaces I do what Jerry does, anneal
the silver so that it is soft enough to go over the bend.  With German silver i cut little v notches on the back side.

I haven't  had any inlays or wire come loose yet!!!  I don't know what will happen in two hundred
years.  If I could remember how to post some pictures I would.

Maybe when Jon from Kingsbury arms comes for a visit this week he will refresh my memory on posting  pictures.  Or just go to my website  (wwwdavidpriceflintlocks.com) and scroll down to the cased set of
pistols.  All the inlays and wire are on curved surfaces.

David Price

[Dennis Glazener]

David,
Hint on the photos. Find the url of the photo on whatever website its on i.e. photobucket or your own, if a photo is on the web it has an URL assigned to it. You can copy this URL by doing a right click on the photo and look for "copy image location". If you click on "copy image location" it should store that URL in your browser and allow you to paste it in your ALR reply.

It should look something link this http://www.americanlongrifles.org/1-images-main/logo-header.jpg (which is the photo of the ALR header rifle). Copy the URL of your photo and paste it in your ALR reply. Then highlight the complete URL and click on the the BBC tag that is in the second row directly under the it looks like this This BBC tag will put the proper instructions in front of the URL to tell our software to display the picture tied to this URL.

If you have problems just put the URL in the posts and I will add the BBC tags to it to make it display.
Dennis

[Kingsburyarms]

Maybe when Jon from Kingsbury arms comes for a visit this week he will refresh my memory on posting  pictures.  Or just go to my website  (wwwdavidpriceflintlocks.com) and scroll down to the cased set of
pistols.  All the inlays and wire are on curved surfaces.

David Price

Honored...

[Mikecooper]

we'll have to agree to disagree on the epoxy.  I have been involved in the violin world where you would be executed by firing squad for using anything other than hide glue.   I'm itchin to build another longrifle so I can use a special violin ground and varnish formula on it.     

I've done wire inlay and friction hold that fine but it's just hard to imagine inlays not being nailed or glued but if it works it works so I'll give it a try.   I have a 1700's VOC penny that I want to inlay.  Those are very thin though,  not nearly as thick as a modern coin. 

I did glue one on the base of a powder horn back a few years ago which I sold.  I always wondered if the glue held.   

Just now looked at the cased pistols.  Very nice!