Difficult silver wire inlay (Updated again with some more photos)

[smart dog]

Hi LtDan,
Try www.riogrande.com.   They have silver ribbon and silver sheet.  I use both.  Also Muzzleloader Builders Supply (www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com) also usually carries silver, German silver, and brass wire ribbon for inlay.  Dave Price also sells a very nice book on doing silver wire.  You can get it from his website (www.davidpriceflintlocks.com)

dave

[smart dog]

Here are some examples of wire inlay on curved surfaces.  Frank told me that he used wood glue and a soldering iron to heat the glue and swell the wood.  www.bricestultzhisblog.blogspot.com

Thanks for that.  Frank was one of the best ever at wire inlay.  Truly inspiring.

dave

[ltdann]

Hi LtDan,
Try www.riogrande.com.   They have silver ribbon and silver sheet.  I use both.  Also Muzzleloader Builders Supply (www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com) also usually carries silver, German silver, and brass wire ribbon for inlay.  Dave Price also sells a very nice book on doing silver wire.  You can get it from his website (www.davidpriceflintlocks.com)

dave

Dave,

Thanks for that.  I've looked at riogrande before and quite frankly, I'm not really sure what'll work.  I've read some of Joe Keeslar  and hugh Toenjes articles, both talk to .008 by .055 and .013 by.055 fine silver flat wire and I'm not having any luck finding it using that description.  I'd really like to practice for a few months before committing to a stock.   Looks like Dave Price's book goes into my cart.

Thanks Dave.

[dogcatcher]

  I'd really like to practice for a few months before committing to a stock.   Looks like Dave Price's book goes into my cart.

Thanks Dave.

Brass bezel wire is cheap practice material used by jewelers to for stone settings.  $2.20 for a 10 foot coil.  https://www.sfjssantafe.com/baseitems.php?Gid=MB025&ItemSet=Red

It is thinner and easy to work with, being thinner it doesn't show up as good, but for practice, your mistakes will still reach out and slap you back to reality.  Copper bezel wire is also available from a lot of the jewelry suppliers.

[smart dog]

Hi Lt Dan,
Rio Grande sells 34, 32, and 28 gauge silver sheet.  Those thicknesses approximate what you are looking for.  Just cut out ribbons using scissors. I use the same dimensions.

dave

[jerrywh]

 I use wire no thicker than .008"  I like .003 or .005 better. you should get a jeweler to roll you out some .005" the .010 looks to thick and clumsy to me.  for practice buy some .005 brass shimstock and cut it with scissors.

Jerry I hope you don't mind that I edited the links to auto display. That way they store in cache and display quickly for all. Dennis

[smart dog]

Hi,
I agree with Jerry 100%.  I mostly use wire that is 0.008" and 0.006" .

dave

[ltdann]

I use wire no thicker than .008"  I like .003 or .005 better. you should get a jeweler to roll you out some .005" the .010 looks to thick and clumsy to me.  for practice buy some .005 brass shimstock and cut it with scissors.
 http://jwh-flintlocks.net/ff-ls-butt1.jpg

http://jwh-flintlocks.net/06-rs-hol-vg.jpg

Holy Moly!  I'm.....no words.

[David Price]

Smart Dog

Nice clean job.

It looks like those few minutes that we spent in my shop went a long way.  You are a fast learner  and
 a true craftsman.  I predict that you will be one of the best in every phase of gun building.

You are certainly welcome to  come to my shop for a visit any time.

David Price

[smart dog]

Hi,
Jerry, those two guns are beyond words.  You are the living representative of those great French craftsmen and artists of the 18th and early 19th centuries.  To me that means you are the living representative of the greatest decorative work on firearms ever done.  It encourages me that someone with those skills still lives and works.  I hope you pass on those skills, Jerry.  I aspire to the same things but in a different direction.  I want to do the great decorative work seen on 17th and 16th century flintlocks, snaphaunces, Spanish locks, wheellocks, and matchlocks.  That is my dream and the sky is the limit for me.  If I fail, so be it, but I will have a lot of fun trying. 

Dave Price, thank you.  I greatly treasure time spent in your shop and discussing gun building with you.  You are one of the great firearm artists working today and I benefit greatly from our visits.  I hope to visit with you soon and you are always welcome at my place.  I think you would like my place so please come visit.

dave

[jerrywh]

 Dave.
    Thank you so much for the compliments. I am still learning and I am sure you will do well. Anybody with your desire and natural love of art can do more than they ever imagined.  You are already way above average.
 It was not many years ago when I said I could never do some of this stuff if my life depended on it. 
 I do not believe there is such a thing as born gifted. Talent is a accumulation of knowledge acquired by studying and years of tying and failure. Boredom is the biggest enemy. If a person is always learning something new and interesting it will drive you to your maximum ability. Almost everything I know was learned from someone else. I'm no genius but I know some geniuses.
   

[ltdann]

I use wire no thicker than .008"  I like .003 or .005 better. you should get a jeweler to roll you out some .005" the .010 looks to thick and clumsy to me.  for practice buy some .005 brass shimstock and cut it with scissors.

Took your advice and found some .003-.005 brass shim stock, with .16 brass rod for the finials.  Made stabbing chisels from xacto blades in widths 1/16, 3/ 32 and 1/8.  Used a diamond hone to decrease thickness to around .025.  Used some left over maple for the block

Used .005 for the center stem and .003 for the tendrils.

First off, wow!  I have new respect for folks that can produce this work cleanly.

Observations....even with chisel thickness reduced, the cuts seemed wide.  I think I need to go deeper as well.

I had quite a bit of trouble justifying the lines and the wire didn't seem to want to stay in.  Tried scoring with file, some areas I cut slots on the bottom edge.  Tried using a wet rag and an iron to swell the wood  and finally resorted to wood glue, which you can see.

The last tendril j-hooks on the right to much, and the last one on the left had some wire pop out while finish sanding.

I'm fairly happy with the feathering where the tendrils merge, but overall the wire looks wavy in spots, like the wood didn't swell to meet the wire.  Maybe use thicker on the wire till I get the hang of it?

This took alot longer than I thought it would.

Have at it folks, I appreciate constructive criticism.

[jerrywh]

 Warning, You can't use wood glue on maple especially. When you stain the maple the wood glue will not stain. There is no such thing as stainable glue no matter who says so. Also put a very high polish on your stab in tools.
  That will help a lot. The tools need to be about .002 to .003 thicker than the ribbon. Your desighns look pretty good. 

[smart dog]

Lt Dan,
The groove should be a little wider than your wire and the wire should go in easily part way.  Then once placed in the groove, I place a thin flexible metal ruler over a section of the wire design and tap the ruler with a hammer.  This sets the wire.  That is how Dave Price does it.  It works well because it pushes entire sections of wire down over a larger area than just where the hammer hits.  Now, make a little tool from a very small screw driver.  Thin the screw driver blade and round the end into a gently curve.  Before wetting the wood, use your screw driver tool to gently nudge the wire to smooth out the curves and push joints together tightly.  Then wet the wood to swell it.  I thoroughly wet the wood with a brush not a rag and I don't normally use any heat, just let it dry. 

dave

[Ed Wenger]

Dave, thanks for the vote of confidence, and your wire work is excellent!  I'm just getting back into the swing of things here after the CLA show, and am enjoying this thread.  Lot's of good stuff...


       Ed

[Daryl]

Hi,
Jerry, those two guns are beyond words.  You are the living representative of those great French craftsmen and artists of the 18th and early 19th centuries.  To me that means you are the living representative of the greatest decorative work on firearms ever done.  It encourages me that someone with those skills still lives and works.  I hope you pass on those skills, Jerry.  I aspire to the same things but in a different direction.  I want to do the great decorative work seen on 17th and 16th century flintlocks, snaphaunces, Spanish locks, wheellocks, and matchlocks.  That is my dream and the sky is the limit for me.  If I fail, so be it, but I will have a lot of fun trying. 

Dave Price, thank you.  I greatly treasure time spent in your shop and discussing gun building with you.  You are one of the great firearm artists working today and I benefit greatly from our visits.  I hope to visit with you soon and you are always welcome at my place.  I think you would like my place so please come visit.

dave

YEAH- what Dave said!

[helwood]

Hi Dave, My name is Hank Elwood, My last postings were in reference to the Tumbler Mill.  I saw that you like early Guns and Snaphaunce, Spanish Miquelet I like these very much but I don't post about them because it's not quite PC for the forum.  I just wanted to pipe in about your wire inlay question and was wondering if you ever tried Steel/Iron wire inlay?  High end Snaphaunce and Wheellocks early flintlocks use to be adorned with iron before brass,silver,or gold.  A couple of years ago I did an early Dutch Blunderbuss with iron.  Here's what I found while figuring things out, Enco sells Steel Shim Stock multipack 6X12inch that is 1010 alloy so even less than 1018.  You can cut it with scissors but you need to anneal it after you cut it.  It work hardens quicker than anything I've ever worked with.  MSC is taking over ENCO at the end of this month.  The thing I found was that I worked from the 6 inch side of the sheet you didn't want to use any longer piece of wire.  I like Jerry's suggestion about annealing the wire by heating it in place.  I had the oppertunity to meat Jerry at the Oregon Gun Makers Fair when I did a talk on the Lukens and Girardoni Air Rifles I made and a pair of Spanish Dragoon Miquilets Pistols with locks I had made from anchor chain.  He is truly a wealth of information and was pleased to meat him.

[Ed Wenger]

Hank!  Great to hear from you, and wish you would post more often!  Your talent and expertise would be most appreciated...  Also, thanks for the engraving information, greatly appreciated!!


             Ed

[ltdann]

Lt Dan,
The groove should be a little wider than your wire and the wire should go in easily part way.  Then once placed in the groove, I place a thin flexible metal ruler over a section of the wire design and tap the ruler with a hammer.  This sets the wire.  That is how Dave Price does it.  It works well because it pushes entire sections of wire down over a larger area than just where the hammer hits.  Now, make a little tool from a very small screw driver.  Thin the screw driver blade and round the end into a gently curve.  Before wetting the wood, use your screw driver tool to gently nudge the wire to smooth out the curves and push joints together tightly.  Then wet the wood to swell it.  I thoroughly wet the wood with a brush not a rag and I don't normally use any heat, just let it dry. 

dave

Roger ball,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge...the polishing of the stabbing chisels was very helpful and is paying dividends on the second practice set.  Good info about glue vs maple because I was wondering about that.

I did an experiment with using water and wood swelling.. with my chisel width, water will effectively hold .005 and.0008 stock, but not .003.   Also need to cut my stripes narrower and go deeper.

Thanks again.

[smart dog]

Hi,
I finished the wire on the patch box side.  Next I likely will do a little around the wrist plate and that should be all.  Then final scraping, finish, metal polishing, engraving, and lock tuning.  Oh, and making a ramrod.

dave 

[Kingsburyarms]

Nice! - looks great

[Rolf]

That is impressiv. Going to be a beautiful gun.

Best regards
Rolf

[Boatman53]

Beautiful work Dave, and it sounds like your 'almost' finished. That's the way I describe some of my projects. I'm almost done, just need to do .........

Jim

[smart dog]

Thanks Jim, Rolf, and Kingsbury,
You are so right Jim.  This project just seems to go on forever but such is life. 

Helwood,
Thank you for looking and I too greatly admire Jerry's work.  I have a copy of Brookers' book "Landeszeughaus, Graz, Austria" .  The first time I heard of using iron wire was reading that book and examining the photos. One thing I did notice was that most of the iron wire work looked crude but then most of the guns were made for military purposes and probably the decoration was not the best for the period.  I would also think that you would want iron wire flush with the wood surface so it is covered by finish. That way it would not rust easily, unless the armorers routinely polished the guns.

dave

[helwood]

Dave,   Yes Landeszeughaus, Graz, Austria is a great text and have spent several hours studying it.  I made a Blunderbuss in the Dutch school with a fish belly stock a few years back.  Used a beautifully figured piece of madrone  and kept all furniture iron.  I would venture to say that there is more iron wire inlay out there than we might think.  When I'm showing folks the blunderbuss most folks think it's silver and it gives me the oppertunity to explain the use of iron wire.  I took the oppertunity to try my first attempt at carving iron for the thumb plate. I had just had a class at GRS with Sam Alfano.  I would post photos but haven't figured that out yet.  But I could email photos to you if your interested.       Hank