Author Topic: Cheap gun kits  (Read 4784 times)

Offline frogwalking

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1044
Cheap gun kits
« on: August 17, 2016, 07:35:47 PM »
A good friend bought a rifle kit for an inexpensive price several years ago.  He tried to build it with my coaching and made considerable progress, but finally gave up.  He asked me to finish it fir him.  He had disassembled the Siler lock to inlet it piece at a time, as I suggested, but had not completed the inletting.  I began to reassemble the lock, beginning with the tumbler and hammer when I discovered that the hammer is a very poor fit to the square tumbler shaft.  This surprised me as I have disassembled and reassembled a number of Jim Chambers locks and never seen this before.  All my previous experience has been with locks assembled in Jim's shop.  It turns out that the kit provider had bought the lock kit from Chambers, built it in-house, and advertised it as a Siler lock.  Please be aware that a Siler is not necessary a Siler.  If it was bought from Jim as a kit, and built by others, the quality of the finished product may not be what you were expecting.
Quality, schedule, price; Pick any two.

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
Re: Cheap gun kits
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2016, 09:49:22 PM »
I learned that lesson the hard way also.  I suspect that same thing may happen with L&R Locks and possibly other locks as well.  Whenever I've purchased a lock directly from the manufacturer the quality has been noticeably better.  Unless there is no Siler lock that really works for a project, now days I just get it directly from Jim Chambers.  The same for White Lighting Vent Liners.

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: Cheap gun kits
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2016, 11:07:35 PM »
 I think you are misleading us here. A Siler lock kit IS a Siler lock, and it IS made by Jim Chambers. But, Jim has no control over who buys them, and how they assemble them. Locks assembled by Jim, and his crew, are good high quality merchandise. I think the flint locks Jim makes are some of the best quality production locks in the world today. Buying a flint lock sight unseen is a lot like Russian roulette.

    Hungry Horse

Offline Dale Halterman

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2695
Re: Cheap gun kits
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2016, 11:33:16 PM »
I believe there is an easy way to tell if a lock has been assembled by Jim's folks as opposed to being sold as a kit and assembled by others.

The hammer screws on the completed locks Jim sells have rounded heads and screws in the kits have flat tops with beveled edges.

If I am mistaken, I hope Jim will correct me.

Dale H

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
Re: Cheap gun kits
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2016, 12:58:47 AM »
I think you are misleading us here. A Siler lock kit IS a Siler lock, and it IS made by Jim Chambers. But, Jim has no control over who buys them, and how they assemble them. Locks assembled by Jim, and his crew, are good high quality merchandise. I think the flint locks Jim makes are some of the best quality production locks in the world today. Buying a flint lock sight unseen is a lot like Russian roulette.

    Hungry Horse

Hungry Horse,

You are misleading yourself by reading something into this thread that just wasn't written.  No one said Siler lock kits weren't made by Jim Chambers or that the locks he assembles aren't top notch quality.  I just got a Late Ketland from him and am about to order a couple of Small Siler locks. 

Both Frogwalking and I were pointing out that if you buy a Siler lock from a supplier, rather than directly from Jim, you risk getting something that is called a Siler lock but wasn't assembled by Jim's folks and it could be lacking in build quality.  NOBODY was disparaging locks, or anything else, made by Jim Chambers and his folks.

Mole Eyes   

     
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline FALout

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 875
Re: Cheap gun kits
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2016, 03:25:39 AM »
Don't forget that the lock may not have been disassembled correctly, hence the looseness.
Bob

Offline frogwalking

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1044
Re: Cheap gun kits
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2016, 04:33:45 AM »
The hammer was not too loose.  It had not been filed to fit, but smashed onto the tumbler with a press or big vice.  I am surprised the tumbler shaft did not break, but it seems ok.  I have filed square holes in hammers from DGW back in the 1960s.  I used a square Swiss needle file on this one and it is better, and works, but not up to Jim's standards. 
Quality, schedule, price; Pick any two.

Offline Dale Halterman

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2695
Re: Cheap gun kits
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2016, 05:18:08 AM »
That sounds like the way L&R installs their hammers.

Dale H

Offline M. E. Pering

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 273
Re: Cheap gun kits
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2016, 07:23:23 AM »
I have assembled Jim Chambers' Siler kits, and they are absolutely top-notch.  Somebody along the way either filed down the tumble protrusion to much, or opened the hole in the cock too much.  We know this has to be a pressure fit, but some don't get it.  But I am certain it is not the fault of Jim Chambers' work. 

I suspect your friend was trying to make the lock better, and filed the hole, since a Chambers' kit doesn't have any filing done on it.  I highly doubt that the kit sellers did anything to the lock kit...  That makes no economic sense whatsoever.  But to correct the problem, you may need to order a new cock.

Matt

Offline Eric Krewson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2257
Re: Cheap gun kits
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2016, 03:54:13 PM »
I got a late ketland from Chambers a year or so ago that had a several small issues. The hammer wouldn't go but half way down on the tumbler, it had been forced on and dug a burr inside about halfway down that stopped it. The cock screw head was egg shaped and wouldn't screw down without binding on the back and the top jaw was too fat on the back side and would bind before the flint could be gripped tightly. An hour or so of file and check check fit got everything shaped up. I had already browned the lock before I found the problems and didn't see a need to send it back for repairs. It had an "L" stamped on the inside. The other two Chambers locks I have bought in the past were as close to perfect as one could hope for.  

This is my first Late Ketland lock and I have to say it is a fire breathing dragon in the performance area, almost as fast as the Roller lock I have on another gun. For those who look at things closely that is white lithium grease around the lock bolt screw hole not an unbrowned part.

I like it!

« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 04:09:47 PM by Eric Krewson »

Offline frogwalking

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1044
Re: Cheap gun kits
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2016, 06:36:50 PM »
I am not sure how many locks, late Ketland, Large Siler, small Siler, colonial Virginia, Queen Ann, and Dale Johnson I have bought from Jim Chambers.  I have had only one minor problem that did not effect performance. (The large Virginia frizzen occasionally bounces.)  This issue was not worth bothering Jim about as it fires every time the trigger is pulled.. 

I built flintlocks when the best lock I was aware of was the Dixie standard flintlock.  Because of this, I know how to appreciate locks that work every time for a long time.  The problems I have described in this thread were, and are involving a lock assembled by one of the current sellers of inexpensive rifle and fowler kits.  My intent was to make people aware that when one buys a flintlock, or a kit, you generally get what you pay for.  If it is inexpensive, it is likely to also be cheap.  I am not saying to not buy an inexpensive kit.  Ask questions such as who assembled the lock, who made the barrel, and what kind of wood is the stock, exactly. You should understand what you are getting for your money. The wood on this kit appears to be poplar, or basswood.  It may be silver maple as it was advertised as being maple.

Note:  my friend, for whom I am finishing this kit, has not laid a file on the lock.  He knows better.
Quality, schedule, price; Pick any two.

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: Cheap gun kits
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2016, 07:30:45 PM »
My objection to your post was the statement, "A Siler isn't always a Siler" ? It most definitely is always a Siler. It may not have been assembled by Chambers, but is still a Siler lock, manufactured, and sold by Jim Chambers. Buyers of gun kits should always ask who assembled the Siler lock kit.
 I had a similar issue with a large Siler flint years ago. I called Jim, and he was a perfect gentleman, and provided the parts for the repair, and instructed me on how to harden the frizzen.
 I just don't want people getting the wrong ideas about Jim, and his products.

    Hungry Horse