Author Topic: Another technical question (Read 10846 times)

Squirrel pizza · « **Reply #25 on:** August 25, 2016, 08:07:25 PM »

Mad Monk, if you have that equation handy please post it for me. Id like to take a crack at it. And i enjoy a good crossword puzzle. Gets the brain juices flowing with my morning coffee. Thanks, Mike

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #26 on:** August 25, 2016, 08:19:57 PM »

The best story I have on this subject, came about when a friend wanted me to drill, and tap, his Thompson Center Hawken barrel, because the screw that held the rear sight had stripped. I examined the screw, and found the threads didn't look like they should, if the stripping had come from simply over tightening. I removed the sight, and that is when I noticed it didn't seat down flat on the barrel. A little examination showed it had a ring in the barrel right under the rear sight. He had been trying to load as fast as he could, practicing up for a team speed shooting contest, and hadn't seated the ball.

Hungry Horse

Squirrel pizza · « **Reply #27 on:** August 25, 2016, 08:59:26 PM »

I can see how its possible to leave a small gap between ball and charge, thinking its fully seated, which is one reason I mark my rods with my trusty pocket knife. I can see how you could short start a ball and get distracted, as demonstrated by Ron. But how in the world do you ram a ball down the barrel and stop a foot away from the breech? Like i posted earlier. The other day i double loaded my .54,not paying attention while shootin the bull with the fellas. But i knew immediately something was wrong. A 70gr load with ball in a .54 isnt that long. About 2" or so. How could you not notice an extra foot of ramrod sticking out of the muzzle? Things that make you go Hmmmm.

Squirrel pizza · « **Reply #28 on:** August 25, 2016, 09:15:48 PM »

This is a good example of why making a bench rod out of hickory, with a handle, that is made to be just slightly longer than the barrel is a good idea. Yes you can cut a stainless steel rod to fit as well. And yes you can mark it for different loads as well. I think the biggest thing is paying attention to the details. Instead of shooting the bull with the fellas. IMHO

Mad Monk · « **Reply #29 on:** August 25, 2016, 10:44:15 PM »

Quote from: Squirrel pizza on August 25, 2016, 08:07:25 PM

Mad Monk, if you have that equation handy please post it for me. Id like to take a crack at it. And i enjoy a good crossword puzzle. Gets the brain juices flowing with my morning coffee. Thanks, Mike

That was seen in one of the engineering books in the chemical plant I worked in. And that was back in the mid-1980s. I got while the getting was good in 1997.

Look for engineering articles dealing with "water hammer" in industrial piping systems. They had a very complicated formula with a large number of variables. I looked at it and sort of cringed. The equation used to look at pressure waves in gas piping.

But the problem becomes one of dealing with the combustion products of black powder at different pressures and temperatures. Nobel and Abel described the gases produced as elastic fluids at certain points in the bore.

I looked at the equation after seeing 4 inch heavy wall stainless piping bulged at the flanges when somebody would close a charge water valve too fast. Then it suddenly hit me that the same action was going on in the gun when firing with a short started projectile. In closed tubes, fine grain black powders can show flame spreading rates down the tube up to 2,000 fps.

bob in the woods · « **Reply #30 on:** August 25, 2016, 10:47:00 PM »

I have seen guys/gals load the rifle or smoothbore, thought they seated the ball, and then watched in amusement as the ram rod slowly rose from the barrel as if by magic ....compressed air in a cap lock will do that
So will a flintlock if you are speed loading with a tight ball /patch combination

Mad Monk · « **Reply #31 on:** August 25, 2016, 10:49:30 PM »

Quote from: Squirrel pizza on August 25, 2016, 08:07:25 PM

Mad Monk, if you have that equation handy please post it for me. Id like to take a crack at it. And i enjoy a good crossword puzzle. Gets the brain juices flowing with my morning coffee. Thanks, Mike

After some quick digging.

Try www.imnoeng.com/waterhammer

In GOOGLE: calculation of water hammer pressure due to valve closure

Squirrel pizza · « **Reply #32 on:** August 25, 2016, 11:03:10 PM »

Thank you MM. I appreciate you taking the time to find that. I worked in a plant that was alway having some sort of technical anomally(explosion). Used to be Columbia Nitrigen in Augusta Ga. Became DSM Chemicals. The 2 sister plants in Texas were closed due to Extreme Technical Anomallies. Saw what your talking about with a spider reactor with 18" stainless steel walls, some had platinum linings, talk about a scavenger hunt! Anyway, thanks again.
Bob ive seen that slow motion anomally as well. Always found it curious and amusing. Happens rather often with the Ruger Old Army. Go to rotate the cylinder and guess what? Not gonna happen! Isnt physics fun?!!

Dphariss · « **Reply #33 on:** August 26, 2016, 05:19:34 AM »

Quote from: bob in the woods on August 25, 2016, 06:15:43 PM

When looking at the issue of bulging a barrel due to short starting a ball, i.e. ball not seated on the powder, we also have to take into account the matter of flintlock or percussion. The vent in a flintlock firearm is a pressure relief point which can help mitigate the problem. I have personally witnessed 2 barrels being bulged [ one split ] because of accidentally short starting a ball. Both were percussion rifles.

Actually not. This is the result of a stuck ball in a 45 caliber FL. It was farther down than a starter usually sets on. Gases passing the ball but a blue color in that area.
Dan

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #34 on:** August 26, 2016, 07:00:02 PM »

That creeping ramrod thing doesn't always happen so slow. When I first started shooting trade guns, I was on a trail walk, at a rendezvous, and quickly loaded my little 30" barreled trade gun. I pushed the load down the bore just as I stepped to the line. When I let go of the ramrod, it squirted out the barrel, off the edge of the trail, and down into a creek bed about twenty feet below the trail.
This is an especially dangerous situation for anybody who has arthritis, or nerve damage, in their hands. Because they may not feel the ramrod creep up a few inches. An old friend killed a bull elk in Idaho years ago with his new tradegun. The next day he went grouse hunting, and nearly blew the little trade gun up when cold weather, old nerve damaged farmer hands, and a tight fitting wad, let the ramrod creep up without him noticing. It broke the stock, bent all the lock bolts, bent the upward tang screw, and bent all the barrel pins. But, it stayed together. Since I gave him the parts, and helped him build it, I took it apart after the mishap. After replacing all the bolt, and pins, and patching the place where the wood behind the tang blew out. And of course measuring the barrel inside,and out, and checking the breech plug threads. We reassembled it and he shot it for the rest of his life. I'm not sure all modern built tradeguns would survive such a test.

Hungry Horse

Squirrel pizza · « **Reply #35 on:** August 26, 2016, 10:01:25 PM »

I've never seen it happen as you described in your woods walk HH but it wouldnt surpise me. Like they say, stranger things have happened. I immagine your fellow shooters got a chuckle out of it. At least your friend wasnt hurt. Glad for that.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #36 on:** August 26, 2016, 10:14:50 PM »

I have seen at least two heavy bench style guns loaded short and fired. Both guns survived with out any bulging or other damage. They did not have dovetails cut for sights or underlugs. But they were not loadable until they had their bores cleaned as the fouling was still in the barrel and baked on it seems.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #37 on:** August 26, 2016, 10:24:21 PM »

S.P. That little trade gun was made from a Belgiun 27" 20 guage Shotgun barrel that was probable made in the 1880's. I got it from Dixie Gun Works, and paid ten dollars apiece for them, if they were bought in threes, with no choice of barrel length, or guage. I built four or five tradeguns with them, and sold several to others who made guns out of them as well. They were scrapped before they were proofed, and some weren't final polished in the bore, and none were polished on the exterior. There were some real oddball gauges in the mix as well. One barrel was 30" long and measured about 47 caliber, another was 27" long and measured 24 guage, I also have a 28 guage that is 30" long from the same batch. They all made up into nice light little tradeguns.

Hungry Horse

Squirrel pizza · « **Reply #38 on:** August 27, 2016, 04:01:30 PM »

HH, that old gun guru i mentioned at the start of this story had a collection of odd ball barrels and parts that went to God knows what he bought years ago from Bannermans. He didnt know what he was gonna do with them but that didnt matter, the price was right. I've never owned a trade gun or fowler. Though I've thought a few times about getting a Brown Bess, for no real reason other than I think they look cool and are fairly historic. The same arguement can be made for trade guns but I kinda look at them as a shotgun that you can shoot a slug from. I don't want to start a debate with those who love smooth bores and I'm not trying to step on anyones toes, but since i enjoy target shooting almost as much as hunting I think it would drive me crazy not having the precision of a rifle. You said your friend killed an elk with one the day before his mishap. I would think there was more hunting/stalking skill involved than shooting ability. A trade gun wouldnt be my first choice of weapons for elk, but I bet it would be a hoot hunting hogs in thickets of Georgia with one.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #39 on:** August 27, 2016, 04:43:50 PM »

My old friend Glenn killed that six point bull at eighty yards, with one shot through the lungs. It turned that bull completely upside down in the air. The bull never got up. A modern hunter across the canyon watched the entire episode through his binoculars, and said he had never seen a centerfire slam an elk that hard. The .595 round ball was under the hide on the opposite side, and was about the size of a quarter.
I made Glenn a brain tanned neck bag for the bullet, to commemorate the event.

Hungry Horse

Squirrel pizza · « **Reply #40 on:** August 27, 2016, 05:24:44 PM »

That is impressive to say the least. A chunk of lead that size with a fair powder load will end most critters. And shot placement like that, especially at a target that probably didn't want to get shot, with a smoothie at that range is the impressive part to me. As I said I've never owned or hunted with one, so its easy to say I dont know what I'm talking about when it comes to trade guns, but I would still be more confident and comfortable with a rifle of sufficient caliber. Just a personal preference.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #41 on:** August 27, 2016, 05:47:26 PM »

Don't underestimate the accuracy of a smoothbore. You don't have much to worry about if your'e a bench shooter, but if you shoot offhand reactive targets,or trail walks, you might get an education from a good smoothbore shooter. Many, myself included, came back from Frog Holler with an all new appreciation for what could be done with a smoothbore. Those Canadian shooters were deadly with their tradeguns. They bent the barrels to make them shoot center, and cleaned more than a few Americans clocks, that were shooting rifles. The only place that was safe was over a hundred yards, and even then they got lucky often enough to keep us on our toes.

Hungry Horse

Squirrel pizza · « **Reply #42 on:** August 27, 2016, 05:56:22 PM »

HH your'e right about one thing for sure, me needing an education if I were to take up smoothbores. I don't have time for my current guns, and need to spend money on a new hobby like a need an extra hole in my head. But that being said, and knowing me the way I do, I will probably own at least two by the end of next week!

Dphariss · « **Reply #43 on:** August 29, 2016, 08:01:04 AM »

Quote from: Hungry Horse on August 27, 2016, 05:47:26 PM

Don't underestimate the accuracy of a smoothbore. You don't have much to worry about if your'e a bench shooter, but if you shoot offhand reactive targets,or trail walks, you might get an education from a good smoothbore shooter. Many, myself included, came back from Frog Holler with an all new appreciation for what could be done with a smoothbore. Those Canadian shooters were deadly with their tradeguns. They bent the barrels to make them shoot center, and cleaned more than a few Americans clocks, that were shooting rifles. The only place that was safe was over a hundred yards, and even then they got lucky often enough to keep us on our toes.

Hungry Horse

So make the targets smaller.

Sorry but I keep thinking about the scratch rifling scam in the Warner-Lowe papers where Nicandor(?) Kendall (one of the firearms genius's of the early 19th c.) scratch rifled a barrel with coarse emery and he and his companion won ALL the Turkeys ("..the man would put up" ) at a SB only turkey match. Might want to wipe all the SBs dry of all oil then drop in a light and eyeball them before matches.

Dan

Dphariss · « **Reply #44 on:** August 29, 2016, 08:21:53 AM »

I suggest you try shooting a chunk of wood weighing 600-700 pounds hung from chains and see how much it moves when its shot with a .595 RB at that distance or any distance for that matter. I shot a mule deer doe at 40 yards at the base of the throat with 662 RB backed with 140 gr of FF Swiss (chronograph said 1600 fps at 15 ft from the muzzle) and she not only did not drop she ran 55 long steps after absorbing all the energy. Top of the heart was gone, "significant" blood trail, blood and tissue ejected out the entrance wound some distance back toward the gun from where she stood. Deer still ran off.

This said William Drummond Stewart did say that a Mule Deer shot with his 20 bore Manton would run off but elk usually fell..... Or something to that effect, gist was that MD were harder to stop than elk. He also said this rifle killed more meat on less powder and lead than any rifle at the Rendezvous. But maybe he was sober.....

Dan

Squirrel pizza · « **Reply #45 on:** August 29, 2016, 05:12:52 PM »

It is amazing what a wild critter can absorb and keep walking. I shot a white tail with a modern rifle from maybe, at most 20 ft. I never saw it flinch. Was gob smacked. I literally cycled the bolt, picked up the brass to see if the bullet came out. As it was walking away at maybe 30 ft I put one in the base of its skull. Upon cleaning I found 1 1/2 lungs and the heart were basically a blood clot. It was dead as Julius Caesar but kept walking. I enjoy large caliber weapons. But I think shot placement is the important part of the equation. I'm not saying I'd want to hunt Grizzlys with a .22,even though I could probably deliver a well placed shot, something with more immediate results would be prefered. But Don i would like to try your experiment. If you would be so kind as to mail me a 600-700 lb chunk of wood(and some chain ) I'll get right on it! Coca Boa would be nice. Thanks, Mike

hanshi · « **Reply #46 on:** August 30, 2016, 01:46:35 AM »

I've killed too many deer with various .45s to worry about not having a big enough gun. I did take a lot with several .50s, a .54 and a .62 smoothbore but never felt undergunned with a .45. I have to say, however, that the .54 and .62 were impressive the way they DRT'd their deer.

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Author Topic: Another technical question (Read 10846 times)