Author Topic: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build  (Read 8632 times)

Offline bones92

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Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« on: August 25, 2016, 05:13:15 PM »
 I have a Bill Large barrel in .40 caliber (13/16" by 42") that I took off of a mediocre stock and lock set, and I would like to build a rifle on it someday.

I emailed Jim Chambers, but they do not make kits for straight barrels (they seem to focus on Rice swamped barrels).

I have looked at Track of the Wolf, and they have a variety of kit options for this barrel.

My initial thoughts are:

-pre-inletted is best, as I have limited woodworking skills
-iron furniture is preferred, especially after seeing so many nice looking iron-mounted rifles posted lately

I would like to pick a style that would be "appropriate" for iron furniture.  It seems as though this would imply a NC/VA/TN style rifle.  Is this correct?

TOTW has a few options: 
Classic Tennessee or Southern Mountain: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/605/1

Appreciate any guidance and input you might have.

If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2016, 06:12:11 PM »
I would go with the Early TN. The Siler lock on the other two would stop me from buying either one. The Siler is a Germanic style lock and almost never seen on an original southern mountain rifle. Too me using one on a SMR just screams WRONG. They are good locks but should be used on the type guns they normally were used on.

To be honest using a straight barrel with a Durs Egg lock (circa 1770-1810) is not proper either since the Durs Egg would have been a much earlier lock than the straight sided barrel (circa 1840-1900's). But you could always claim the Durs Egg lock was an old one being reused on a later rifle :D
Dennis
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 06:17:05 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Online EC121

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2016, 06:47:47 PM »
Couldn't the same be said for the Siler lock.  Mr. Ivey's book shows enough pointed tails and faceted pans, especially in the Deep River section, to make the Siler a legitimate( not necessarily common) choice.  Round the pan a bit to change the look some.  Plan B is to buy the stock without any lock inletting to use whatever lock is desired.  For a first attempt at building use whatever you can get. 
Brice Stultz

Offline bones92

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2016, 06:54:41 PM »
What is a common or correct lock design for a southern mountain rifle?

EC121, that is a good option.  I have never inletted a stock for a lock before, but I'm sure I could figure it out (with abit of research here and otherwise).
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Offline stuart cee dub

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2016, 07:41:21 PM »
Im' going to echo EC121 opinion .

Buy a stock without the pre-inletted mortise.

 My reasoning however is not so much not getting the right lock while certainly important .(I like Chambers late Ketlands ) but that without very very precise inletting, the touch hole and the pan never seem to line up correctly.Namely the touch hole at back of the barrel and centered at the sunset position with the pan .
Alignment is critical for good consistant ignition.

IMHO With a pre-inletted lock mortised stock it's better to get the lock in first and the mark the barrel for the touch hole and then get the barrel settled in to get the alignment right  . Actually it's a lot of work to do it this way, normally considered doing things in reverse order  .Sometimes you actually have to add accuglas to bring the barrel up in some cases .

I build up '61 springfields this way with Dunlap stocks and original parts .
Actually their lock  inletting is not too bad at all .Usually the barrels need to be dropped in quite a bit, no glassing needed. The bolster must fit in the lock notch just so.This was the only way I figured I could get a perfect fit.   

I have been told Mr Kibler's Southern Mtn guns are very very precisely inletted but have no personal experience. 

Lock inletting is not difficult .Frankly it's faster than trying to adjust things in reverse order. And it will give you more flexibility on your lock choices .
You can inlet a lock with an exacto knife with a #11 blade ,a small spoon gouge and an 1/8 wide chisel, candle for some lamp black ,and a can of vegetable spray (the last two is what I use for inletting transfer black)

Do let us know what you come up with .




Offline WadePatton

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2016, 07:42:09 PM »
What is a common or correct lock design for a southern mountain rifle?

EC121, that is a good option.  I have never inletted a stock for a lock before, but I'm sure I could figure it out (with abit of research here and otherwise).


English not German, in my little world.

There are a bunch of English-styled locks, pick any one.  
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2016, 08:17:34 PM »
Hi Bones,

Give Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply a look see.  http://www.longrifles-pr.com/

They can inlet your barrel and drill the RR hole in your wood or their's.  They can also shape the stock, with or without the lock mortise cut in, if that's what you want.  They are good people to deal with.

I don't know your location, but Friendship is coming up in about 3 weeks.  Pecatonica will be there with a boatload of inletted stocks.  I'll bet they have one inletted for a 13/16 straight barrel in the rack.

-Ron
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 10:25:17 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2016, 09:11:30 PM »
Quote
What is a common or correct lock design for a southern mountain rifle?
As others have said an English lock. I have seen many with Golcher locks, I use mostly the Chambers Late Ketland but it probably is a little too early and to nice a lock for most SMR, many of the originals had fairly cheap hardware store English made locks that I understand were imported to America by the barrelfuls.

I do agree about buying a kit without the lock mortise. Most pre-inlet mortises are just enough undersized to make you pull your hair out trying to get a good fit, (try taking only a 32nd of wood off evenly all around the lock mortise!) and also the problem that it may or may not be where the mortise needs to be.
Dennis
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 09:34:47 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline bones92

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2016, 09:39:47 PM »
How I wish I could go to Friendship... maybe someday, as a road-trip with my son.

I will give Pecatonica a ring.  It might be wise to just send them the barrel and have them cut the stock.

The Bill Large barrel already has the vent hole, so I will have to work with that.
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Offline KentSmith

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2016, 09:52:29 PM »
Then you need a stock without the lock already inlet

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2016, 10:34:02 PM »
The Bill Large barrel already has the vent hole, so I will have to work with that.

Then you need a stock without the lock already inlet

Yes, that is for sure.  The lock needs to be positioned based on the vent.

-Ron
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Offline Pennsylvania Dutchman

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2016, 11:31:05 PM »
I don't know how Bill Large breeched his barrels, but some barrel makers in his time used 3/4" long breech threads. I understand it is harder to get good wrist architecture with long breech threads. May be something to check before you get a stock machined.
Mark
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Offline Curt Larsen

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2016, 11:41:25 PM »
Just a piece of advice, I would choose a stock that is not inletted for the lock.  My reason is this.  It is important to have the touch hole line up with the top center of the lock pan.  The touch hole location on your barrel is already drilled I guess.  In short, it is easier to inlet the lock to conform to your touch hole.  I've had pre inlets that don't account for the length of the face of the breech plug in my barrel.  That has forced me to drill into the face of the breech plug when I'm installing a white lightning vent.  I prefer to drill for my vent at least 1/8" from the face of the breech plug and inlet my lock to suit the touch hole.   

Offline bones92

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2016, 11:56:23 PM »
Would it be helpful if I were to post a photo of the barrel and vent hole position, along with measurements?
If it was easy, everyone would do it.

thimble rig

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2016, 01:06:10 AM »
Look up knob mountain muzzleloading.Dave Keck.He has stock profiles.And he leaves his for arms square,That makes it a lot easier to drill for the thimble pins and barrel teneons.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2016, 02:46:02 AM »
Im' going to echo EC121 opinion .

Buy a stock without the pre-inletted mortise.

 My reasoning however is not so much not getting the right lock while certainly important .(I like Chambers late Ketlands ) but that without very very precise inletting, the touch hole and the pan never seem to line up correctly.Namely the touch hole at back of the barrel and centered at the sunset position with the pan .
Alignment is critical for good consistant ignition.

IMHO With a pre-inletted lock mortised stock it's better to get the lock in first and the mark the barrel for the touch hole and then get the barrel settled in to get the alignment right  . Actually it's a lot of work to do it this way, normally considered doing things in reverse order  .Sometimes you actually have to add accuglas to bring the barrel up in some cases .

I build up '61 springfields this way with Dunlap stocks and original parts .
Actually their lock  inletting is not too bad at all .Usually the barrels need to be dropped in quite a bit, no glassing needed. The bolster must fit in the lock notch just so.This was the only way I figured I could get a perfect fit.   

I have been told Mr Kibler's Southern Mtn guns are very very precisely inletted but have no personal experience. 

Lock inletting is not difficult .Frankly it's faster than trying to adjust things in reverse order. And it will give you more flexibility on your lock choices .
You can inlet a lock with an exacto knife with a #11 blade ,a small spoon gouge and an 1/8 wide chisel, candle for some lamp black ,and a can of vegetable spray (the last two is what I use for inletting transfer black)

Do let us know what you come up with .





I looked at the Kibler kit and the two guns at the CLA Show and say they are the best I have ever seen.
Well worth the price.

Bob Roller

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2016, 06:10:47 AM »
Kiblers kit is awesome. Very well done. Jim makes these kits with the newbie builders in mind. And at $950 it's a check of a deal.

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2016, 07:23:12 AM »

 I have just completed one of Dennis' Mathew Gillespies I can't say enough good about it. The only trouble I have had have been my mistakes.

 In building a rifle you have got to overcome your mistakes. When you choose your own locks and triggers, you better be prepared to work that stuff out.....Making all this stuff work together is just rifle building.

 Mr. Glazener's Gillespie Rifle Works and most of David Keck's (Knob Mountain...Fred Miller Patterns) are not really kits, rather, they are the basic parts to build up an authentic rifle. A rifle that otherwise would only be possible though a blank build/bench copy with the original on hand as the pattern.

 Briefly here is is how it worked for me.

 I had a 44" Colerain Bivins Barrel, a C wt in .54. Originally I had planned on a Rev War era rifle thus the profile. I contacted Dennis and we discussed his Mathew stock. I had admired that rifle for a long time and it was more appropriate for the time I reenact (Redstick War of 1814-14).

 The original rifle had a wide breech so the Colerain was a good match for the stock.Your 13/16 barrel may be better suited for Mr. Glazeners Harvey Gillespie Pattern. Mr. Glazener/Dennis is the one who can tell you for sure.

 I chose what wood I wanted from what Dennis had available. I chose Black Cherry and I then sent Dennis my barrel.
 A couple of weeks layer my parts arrived. In the box was a Cherry stock with my barrel inlet and the ramrod hole drilled. It was pre shaped from the mid point of the lock panels back. From there forward to the muzzle it was in the square. Included was a set of Davis triggers, the Gillespie triggerguard, brass to make the pipes, ramrod tips, some hickory rods and screws and pins. I also ordered his Harvey Gillespie print. I already has his Gillespie book.

 Over the next few years the rifle parts lived in the closet. I chose different locks and I even had a Pete Allen Percussion for awhile. I sold the Allen and finally chose a Davis Common with the gooseneck cock. I reshaped this lock.

 I filed the breech tang to a point. Thinned the tang, reinstalled to the barrel, inlet the plug, bent the tang, inlet the tang and plug down, made the under lugs, one at a time I dove tailed them into the barrel and inlet them into the stock.

 I was stuck for a while, put it away then I made contact with a rifle builder. He gave me some advise and hands on instruction(drilling pins) and at a session at his shop I started the lock inlet. I finished the lock inlet at home. Shaped the stock closer to profile and inlet the triggers. Here I made a mistake. I was little too forward with my set triggers and the Davis had a high sear bar. The curve of the stock confused me. I should have went straight up instead by the curve of the stock I was slightly too far forward....rookie mistake.

 I then inlet the guard....it required almost no bending and fit well after just a little tweak.
 Then it was all shaping with a pattern makers rasp, scrapers, chisels, files, a broken glass window pane and even some cheater sand paper.

 The rifle has three screws and a lock bolt. The guard holds the triggers in and the barrel tang is held by a screw per original Gillespies.

 So maybe that give you an idea of what to expect.

 I really recommend David Rase's drill jig. I have a drill press but it's cheap and incomplete and a PIA to use except for basic drilling. I did not have for this build except for the vent. It's great for pins and lock bolts.

 I bought the set in 2009. Life ect ect got in the way but really I have been heavy on the rifle since April I took a month or so off this summer.....to make sure I was not rushing it ::) So if you got after it steady.....3-6 months.
 Most used tools, files, rasps pattern makers 50 and rat tail, but by far the 1/4 chisel.

 Consider Dennis. In addition to his Gillespies he has a new pattern. A neat old SW Virginia Rifle?? that was built with a musket's trigger and guard.

 

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2016, 04:29:12 PM »
What is a common or correct lock design for a southern mountain rifle?

EC121, that is a good option.  I have never inletted a stock for a lock before, but I'm sure I could figure it out (with abit of research here and otherwise).


My first choice is a Chambers late Ketland. The L&R Manton can be used but sometimes the fitting of the mechanism
internally is not what it could be.I made a Ketland years ago and once in a while one pops up on Ebay or some other
venue but I don't try to keep up with these things.

Bob Roller

Offline KentSmith

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2016, 04:43:05 PM »
It's really not that big of a deal.  If starting with a stock blank is too challenging, send the blank and barrel to Dave Keck, Pecatonica or any of the competent stock carvers on this board, ask for a southern pattern of your choice, withno lock inlet.  Get a Chambers Late Ketland, if you can find one or the L&R Manton if you can't. Buy or make your self a good mainspring vise because you probably need to disassemble the lock to inlet (though some inlet them assembled, as a first go you may want to make it easier on yourself, you want to polish and tune it up anyway).  Take your time, keep the edges wicked sharp and enjoy making sawdust out of expensive wood.

Offline bones92

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2016, 05:07:04 PM »
How about the Davis Late Ketland?  (i.e., vs a Chambers Late Ketland)

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/756/1/LOCK-LK-F
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Offline bones92

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2016, 05:20:21 PM »
Pecatonica's SMR is a good looking style... http://www.longrifles-pr.com/southernmtn.shtml

I can see now where Pedersoli got their design for the "Frontier" or "Blue Ridge" rifle buttstock.  A shame they didn't just choose to incorporate more features of the SMR.
If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2016, 05:51:25 PM »
Would it be helpful if I were to post a photo of the barrel and vent hole position, along with measurements?

Yes.  Measurement from breech end to vent center and breech plug length.  If the plug is not out of the barrel, run a ramrod down the barrel and make a mark on the rod at the muzzle, then lay the RR along the barrel with the mark and muzzle lined up.  That should show you an approximate length of the plug.


How about the Davis Late Ketland?  (i.e., vs a Chambers Late Ketland)

Mr. Glazener and Mr. Roller both favor the Chambers Late Ketland.  That's the way I would go.

-Ron
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Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2016, 02:02:47 AM »
Here is a Pecatonica Southern Classic precarve, .40 cal 13/16" barrel and a late Ketland lock from Chambers. Even with a precarve you have a lot of wood to remove.





« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 02:20:21 AM by Eric Krewson »

Offline bones92

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Re: Guidance requested on choosing a kit to build
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2016, 04:40:44 AM »
Eric, that is really beautiful.  That's basically what I'm after.
If it was easy, everyone would do it.