Author Topic: Lock builder question  (Read 5399 times)

Offline haddockkl

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Lock builder question
« on: August 25, 2016, 09:11:53 PM »
So I am looking for input from experienced lock builders, interested to know;

How long does the average flintlock take to assemble
Do you make or source your own screws
What specialized tooling other than a good drill press, mill, and lathe?

I am throwing around the idea of crafting a few locks based on historical examples and having some lost wax models sent to the foundry and trying to make 15 or 20 locks and see what happens. Anything anyone with experience is willing to share will begreatly appreciated, and if you don't feel comfortable posting it feel free to email or PM me.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Lock builder question
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2016, 11:39:14 PM »
Years ago, I made locks including the springs and screws, with nothing more than files, hacksaw, machinist's vise, propane torch, and a bench grinder.  I used a portable electric drill clamped in my vise for a lathe to make the screws, and a tap and die set from a hardware store I bought for $10 (1971).  Even then, I was using Kasenit to case harden the screws. You also need a set of Vernier's calipers, or a micrometer (better). They turned out well and are still functioning just fine,  So it can be done, with the appropriate level of determination.

From this primitive start, I now have a drill press, small mill and a good lathe and a 6 x 48 belt grinder, but most of the work is done by hand with saw and files.  Certainly, from cast parts, small hand tools and polishing abrasives is all you need.   ...plus the desire and patience to see it through with thoughtfulness and care.

Robert Roller is arguably the king of making locks in a metal shop.  Perhaps he will chip in.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Lock builder question
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2016, 11:54:35 PM »
Good luck with your project - hope it works out well for you.
I've made a few complete locks both flint & percussion and I only will build a complete lock if ABSOLUTELY necessary. Now I DO make my own plates, screws, bridles, sears, tumblers, & springs when the original parts are not up to "standards". There is a LOT of work in getting everything to work just right and at this stage in my life I'd rather pay for a lock. That said I have a lathe, mill, drill press and other assorted equipment that makes the job much easier but there is still a lot of fitting to be done


« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 11:55:25 PM by P.W.Berkuta »
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Lock builder question
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2016, 02:35:58 AM »
Years ago, I made locks including the springs and screws, with nothing more than files, hacksaw, machinist's vise, propane torch, and a bench grinder.  I used a portable electric drill clamped in my vise for a lathe to make the screws, and a tap and die set from a hardware store I bought for $10 (1971).  Even then, I was using Kasenit to case harden the screws. You also need a set of Vernier's calipers, or a micrometer (better). They turned out well and are still functioning just fine,  So it can be done, with the appropriate level of determination.

From this primitive start, I now have a drill press, small mill and a good lathe and a 6 x 48 belt grinder, but most of the work is done by hand with saw and files.  Certainly, from cast parts, small hand tools and polishing abrasives is all you need.   ...plus the desire and patience to see it through with thoughtfulness and care.

Robert Roller is arguably the king of making locks in a metal shop.  Perhaps he will chip in.

No king,no way not even close. Lock making is a labor intensive job and anyone that can make a lock
using less equipment than I have is a good machinist/mechanic.I have one heavy drill press,a tool room milling
machine,four lathes one of which is modified for screw making,two metal cutting bandsaws,one vertical and one
horizontal. A very wide assortment of files from tiny to big.Two bench grinders,one is as bought and the other
modified to use as a polisher and grinder.Also a wide variety of precision measuring tools such as a real Vernier,
two dial calipers and several sets of micrometers. There is also a pre WW2 Mauser combination Vernier caliper
and height gauge calibrated in decimal readings.I use it occasionally with adjustable parallels for laying out odd,
non muzzle loader related jobs.ALL of this is old American equipment except the Mauser gauge.
I made my first lock in Bill Large's shop in 1953,mostly with hacksaw and files.He helped me with the springs
and the screws were common hardware store items.It worked and I was happy with it.
In the last 63 years I have been in and out of lock making but have settled on material I KNOW works for me.
12L14 for screws,1075 for main and sear springs and 1144 Stress proof for tumblers.Bridles and trigger bars
are 1018 and triggers are 1018 case hardened or made from 0-1 if I am really energetic.Pins are drill rod.
I can't do an article on making a lock but it is a skill that requires time and lots of it.Cut and try,measure and cut
and try to visualize what the job will look like when it's done.DON'T worry if it's not perfect. NONE of them are no matter what
length of experience you have.Locks are part machinist,bench and artist skills and it takes time to bring all that together
into an operational ensemble that is useable and reliable.
Don't quit if the first lock is not right.My experience tells me it might not be all you want it to be but don't stop trying.
I might be one of the last to bench build a lock in our time for customers.I am not seeking new new work and am
tired. I have a number of pending orders that I may or may not finish.None are paid for and it has been my policy
for years to NOT take advance payment or promise delivery dates.

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Lock builder question
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2016, 02:54:18 AM »
So I am looking for input from experienced lock builders, interested to know;

How long does the average flintlock take to assemble
Do you make or source your own screws
What specialized tooling other than a good drill press, mill, and lathe?

I am throwing around the idea of crafting a few locks based on historical examples and having some lost wax models sent to the foundry and trying to make 15 or 20 locks and see what happens. Anything anyone with experience is willing to share will begreatly appreciated, and if you don't feel comfortable posting it feel free to email or PM me.

Good drill press,mill and lathe? That's a start but the lock making will come down to filing and fitting,
the bench work will make or break the job.I have a large assortment of files from allover the world
and that is an advantage that's hard to estimate.CURRENT hardware store files are poor quality unless
you "luck"into some new old stock American makes.
There is a reason the Brits used the term "Lock Filers"instead of lock makers.

Bob Roller 

Offline haddockkl

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Re: Lock builder question
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2016, 03:53:47 AM »
Thank you all for your input, and the fact that it is all hand filing intensive is coming through loud and clear. I do need to invest in some good quality files, I saw the ones Mr Roller had listed but I will limp through my first few locks with what I have.

Mr Roller, do you work exclusively with flat and bar stock or do you have investment castings made and fit them?

Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: Lock builder question
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2016, 04:06:46 AM »
I have been working on this idea as well for a year or so, but I intend on forging my parts instead of using castings.  That being said, I have built a couple of locks from Jim Chambers' kits, and they really don't take that long to...  I could probably complete one in a day if I worked steady at it.  By complete, I am not including engraving, but just getting it functional and polished.  It sounds like you are basically going to be starting from a kit as well, since you are considering using castings.

Have you made a prototype yet?  That is the thing that will take the most time.  I have made mechanical drawings of mine, but have yet to find time at the forge yet this summer.  Once you get the prototype made, you could make silicone molds for the wax.  But keep in mind, some shrinkage will occur in the foundry process, so it might be best to make the prototype a bit oversized. 

As far as screws go, it is nice to have a lathe.  I turn the basic screw blank on the lathe, but don't us the lathe for threading.  I have used the lathe for threading, but it is just easier for me to use a die in the tailstock for cutting threads.  A mill is also nice to have, but most tasks can be accomplished with a drill press.  For springs, you only really have 2 choices that would be cost effective... Forge them yourself or buy off the shelf springs that were intended for other locks.  Personally, I will be forging my own, since I can make them to fit exactly.  I also use 1075 for this.  A metal cutting band saw is also a good tool to have.  I only have one that can be used either horizontally or vertically.   

Good luck with it, and let us know your results.

Matt

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Lock builder question
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2016, 04:24:40 AM »
 I agree with Bob completely. I have just about all the equipment he has other stuff.  I have made all my own patterns, molds and waxes. I think a tig welder is extremely handy. One thing I suggest is if you have the locks cast do not cast the plates or any other parts with the holes in them. Your parts will all shrink and need to be hand fitted. They will not just go together. Believe me chambers did a lot of work to get his casting as good as they are. Springs may need to be revised etc.  I just built two locks from scratch and it took me about a month but I am old and don't work hard. I probably have over a hundred files down to #8 cut. and as small as a sack needle. You will learn much but it is fun. it will set you aside from other builders. You must have an accurate heat treating furnace also. This lock and it's twin were hand made.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 04:27:33 AM by jerrywh »
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Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: Lock builder question
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2016, 04:47:19 AM »
That is some really beautiful work, Jerry.

Matt

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Lock builder question
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2016, 04:01:38 PM »
I agree with Bob completely. I have just about all the equipment he has other stuff.  I have made all my own patterns, molds and waxes. I think a tig welder is extremely handy. One thing I suggest is if you have the locks cast do not cast the plates or any other parts with the holes in them. Your parts will all shrink and need to be hand fitted. They will not just go together. Believe me chambers did a lot of work to get his casting as good as they are. Springs may need to be revised etc.  I just built two locks from scratch and it took me about a month but I am old and don't work hard. I probably have over a hundred files down to #8 cut. and as small as a sack needle. You will learn much but it is fun. it will set you aside from other builders. You must have an accurate heat treating furnace also. This lock and it's twin were hand made.


Beautiful,elegant work.Did you keep track of the time in making these two locks? I have always tried to
concentrate on the mechanisms and leave the high art deco work to those that are qualified to do it.
These highly specialized little tools are essential to this level of work
Like you,I am old and the words "Labor intensive or hard work" have been purged from my vocabulary.
Thanks for posting the picture,

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Lock builder question
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2016, 04:18:32 PM »
Thank you all for your input, and the fact that it is all hand filing intensive is coming through loud and clear. I do need to invest in some good quality files, I saw the ones Mr Roller had listed but I will limp through my first few locks with what I have.

Mr Roller, do you work exclusively with flat and bar stock or do you have investment castings made and fit them?

On my caplocks I use an investment cast hammer and the rest is bar stock of the kinds I mentioned earlier.
I use the EXTERNAL parts from L&R's Egg,Manton and Ashmore flintlocks and on RARE jobs for a German
maker I use their Schuetzen lock plates and hammers with a special mechanism.  I have also used the external
parts of the Chambers late Ketland which I consider the best production lock now made.
The files I have left are the half round multi cut and a few wood rasps.If you can find good quality files buy them
because current production is poorly done.The multi cuts will move a lot of metal but are no good for small precise
parts.

Bob Roller

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Lock builder question
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2016, 06:59:48 PM »
 I never kept time on making these two locks. The only thing I ever kept time on was engraving the barrels of this gun. It took me about 9 months to engrave the barrels.
I call these hand made locks but actually I made the patterns, molds and waxes and Blackley in England cast them for me. It took about a month each to get them in rough shape. The hammers had to be timed  to be in the same position with each other. They are case hardened. I have forged out locks in both a coal forge and a propane forge. That kind of work is for kids. I figure these two locks were about $5000.00 each.
  The man who bought this gun said he was going to take it to the CLA show about 4 years ago but he never did. He produces TV commercials.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 07:02:25 PM by jerrywh »
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Lock builder question
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2016, 12:34:19 AM »
I never kept time on making these two locks. The only thing I ever kept time on was engraving the barrels of this gun. It took me about 9 months to engrave the barrels.
I call these hand made locks but actually I made the patterns, molds and waxes and Blackley in England cast them for me. It took about a month each to get them in rough shape. The hammers had to be timed  to be in the same position with each other. They are case hardened. I have forged out locks in both a coal forge and a propane forge. That kind of work is for kids. I figure these two locks were about $5000.00 each.
  The man who bought this gun said he was going to take it to the CLA show about 4 years ago but he never did. He produces TV commercials.

YEARS ago the late Lynton McKenzie told me that to buy locks of the quality you have shown would require the yearly
pay made by a tenured teacher,working in London. This class of work has never been common and I know from long
experience that there is much more than just being good at filing.

Bob Roller

Offline Stan

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Re: Lock builder question
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2016, 05:17:55 AM »
Congrats Jerry!! That is as good as I have seen in years. I assume that the inside is as good as the outside.
Now if you can only find SOMEONE that can afford that quality of work. Regards Stan Hollenbaugh