Author Topic: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached  (Read 13066 times)

tgraytn

  • Guest
Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« on: August 27, 2016, 02:36:08 AM »
Hello everyone,

Let me start by saying that I am a complete "newbie" when it comes to building a longrifle kit.  I purchased a .32 caliber kit and the instructions stated that the barrel is 100% inlet.  However, I noticed that there is quite a gap underneath and around the muzzle so I decided to apply inletting black to the bottom and two sides of the barrel and place it in the stock.  The tang, barrel tenons and the rest of the barrel appears to be seated into the stock properly.  When I removed the barrel, it appears (by the marks left) that the barrel channel still needs some work.  I was going to call the nice folks that I purchased the kit from but they were already closed for the week.  Being that I want to work on it this weekend, I figured that I would throw this out to the group to get your thoughts.  Do I need to do more inletting work on the stock or not? 

I appreciate your thoughts!! 















Thanks!!

Tom


Offline retired fella

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 435
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2016, 02:47:42 AM »
It appears you are on the right track.  From your pictures it looks like the culprit in in areas of rough grain.  Knock those areas down a bit with fine sand paper and see if that helps.  The key words here are slow and well thought out.  In other words don't rush your build.  Keep us posted with pictures.  Good luck and welcome to the madness.

Offline Joe S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
  • the other Joe S.
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2016, 03:00:47 AM »
How's the finish on your barrel,does it need a lot of file work?maybe clean that up first before you start scraping.Hard to tell from the picture.

silly goose

  • Guest
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2016, 03:10:50 AM »
What would happen if you clamped it a little closer to the muzzle?  Might that draw it up? 

tgraytn

  • Guest
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2016, 04:22:29 AM »
It appears you are on the right track.  From your pictures it looks like the culprit in in areas of rough grain.  Knock those areas down a bit with fine sand paper and see if that helps.  The key words here are slow and well thought out.  In other words don't rush your build.  Keep us posted with pictures.  Good luck and welcome to the madness.

Thanks retired fella!  The barrel channel was definitely left rough!

tgraytn

  • Guest
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2016, 04:23:55 AM »
How's the finish on your barrel,does it need a lot of file work?maybe clean that up first before you start scraping.Hard to tell from the picture.

I agree, it is hard to tell from the pictures.  I have already draw filed and light sanded the barrel so it should be in good shape.

tgraytn

  • Guest
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2016, 04:25:17 AM »
What would happen if you clamped it a little closer to the muzzle?  Might that draw it up? 

I just moved one of my C-Clamps to within a couple of inches from the end of the barrel and that didn't help close the gap at all.  I guess I'm off to scraping and sanding.

tgraytn

  • Guest
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2016, 04:29:38 AM »
Question: If a stock is inletted as close to perfect as possible and you apply the inletting black, wouldn't the channel be fairly close to being solid black when you remove the barrel?  If so being that I only have marks on either side, it appears that I have quite a bit to do.

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4413
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2016, 04:33:16 AM »
Take your time. Light sand the soot marks an repeat the process till it's snug. Follow retired fellows advice. Slow an easy. Don't get in a hurry. Good luck

Mikecooper

  • Guest
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2016, 04:50:18 AM »
It looks like the black in the channel is mostly where the barrel edges touch. Maybe file the edges of the barrel a little and see if it seats in more.  I think you should be getting more black on the sides of the channel. 

Offline retired fella

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 435
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2016, 05:19:42 AM »
No, the black marks should show only where the inlet is a bit high.  Don't make the mistake of gouging out any chunks.  You are probably only dealing with a few thousands of an inch several inches back towards the breach.







Swamp Rat

  • Guest
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2016, 06:03:14 AM »
Question: If a stock is inletted as close to perfect as possible and you apply the inletting black, wouldn't the channel be fairly close to being solid black when you remove the barrel?  If so being that I only have marks on either side, it appears that I have quite a bit to do.

One trick I saw in the tutorials was to use a small ball of play dough laid in the barrel channel. small like a no. 5 shot size, in your deep spots to show you how much wood on the high spot your looking at taking off.  It should help you picture it in your mind.

Here is the  link. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=22946.0
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 10:51:04 PM by Ky-Flinter »

tgraytn

  • Guest
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2016, 06:16:38 AM »
Thanks everyone for your replies!!  MUCH Appreciated!!!

54ball

  • Guest
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2016, 10:02:11 AM »
 You need more support for that stock! The single padded 2x4 is not enough, you need a big padded block or more of those padded 2x4s, maybe a frame of some sort....

 C clamps have their use but not for this. To fit a barrel you need some support under the area you are working. Since this is a thinned down pre-carve it needs even more support.



 Firstly check and make sure the stock is not flexing giving you a false read. Check it supported with no C lamps, they mat be flexing your stock. As said it needs more support.
Check this first!!!

 I'm going to be perfectly honest. What you have here is a pain in the butt. Why???

Normally the barrel is inlet to the stock unbreeched. Seldom if ever do you get a solid black channel, you are looking for good even contact but even with machine inlets a solid black channel is uhhh...unrealistic. You are looking for good even coverage. 50 percent even less but with good coverage.

  Once the barrel is down the breech and tang are inlet.
  With the barrel,breech and tang inlet then the lugs are fitted one at a time.

 To simplify, steps A through D have been completed but it looks like step A may need to be revisited. What about B,C&D??? I think you can work around them instead re-doing them.  
 I'm not trying to make it harder but you are really to keep your head in the game.

 For a good rifle the barrel must be fit well in 2 areas. The breech,the most critical and the muzzle. The muzzle is important but not as critical as the breech. I agree that there should be little to no gap under the barrel at the muzzle. So you need to bring the barrel down here some.
 

 

 First, Clean out the lug inlet. Make sure it's not keeping the barrel up.
 Lets read what we have here. There are obvious high spots in the barrel channel. The first about 2 inches behind the muzzle the other further back. Look at the sides. You don't want to remove material from the sides but you may need to clean out the corner where the side flat corners on the angled bottom flat.
 Clear as mud? Just make sure the bottom of the side flat inlet is crisp and not keeping the barrel up. You want to barrel channel to be a mirror image of the bottom of the barrel.
 You need good sharp chisels or at least one good 1/4 inch bench chisel, sharpened scary sharp. You can use other stuff like a riffler file or even an emory fingernail board but a chisel and a good one is whats best for this work IMHO. If you do not have one or know how to keep it sharp, get one, learn how to sharpen it and then come back to your work.

 For this light precise work I'll scrape my chisel almost like a scraper. I'm not near as good as my mentor who goes to town with a bench chisel. I'm slow and conservative with it. For light stuff like this I will scrape with a chisel but for a little more bight, I'll work the chisel in the channel Flat side up. For me bevel up cuts too deep. Pay attention to grain. If it want's to chip or is grainy/stringy reverse direction as you are going against the grain. Putting a barrel in, I have seen the grain change 3 times in as many inches.

 For here...
 Check the lug inlet
 Remove the high spots in the bottom of the channel.
 Check and maybe cleanup the bottom corner of the side flat in the stock inlet not the barrel.I'm sorry but another posters advice on filing the barrel flats was bad advice. You fit wood to metal not metal to wood especially in this case. With that said you may want to file and clean up the barrel lugs. It will not hurt at all to clean up the sides and round the corners of the lugs with a file.



 You really have good contact here. I do see some black in the lug inlet. Clean that out and make sure it's not keeping you up.
 Remember what I said about good fitment at the breech and muzzle? In the middle, it's gravy. I would only remove material here to help with muzzle or even the breech. If the center of the channel is high it may be keeping you up at the muzzle. You want to barrel channel to be a mirror image of the bottom of the barrel.



 I believe the lug may be keeping you up here. Remember what I said about the bottom corner of the side flat. I can't really tell but as always... You want to barrel channel to be a mirror image of the bottom of the barrel.



 The big view we can see several high spots in the barrel channel. These and the lugs may be keeping you up. Whats not pictured is the breech. You need good contact there , especially on the breech face(the wood behind the barrel)

 Good luck go slow It's just a matter of taking a little off here and there...fine tuning. It's looks to be really close.
Good Luck
 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 10:20:42 AM by 54ball »

Offline Joe S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
  • the other Joe S.
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2016, 01:37:16 PM »
54 ball,why would you inlet a barrel that needed to be draw filed?After getting a rough barrel inlet down into the stock then taking a file to it don't you run the risk of making it a loose fit?To get a barrel inlet perfect to only file more material off the flats does not make sense to me.Never mind I reread the thread and think your talking about taking a file to the flats afterwords to seat the barrel.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 01:44:58 PM by Joe S. »

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2016, 04:06:41 PM »
Let's keep a couple things in mind here before we go completely anal. MAny old stocks had round barrel channels with octagon barrels in them. They only made contact here and there, no big deal. Most important is a tight breech contact, I'm talking the back of the barrel here. At this point you need to get your barrel seated well then inlet your breech plug then pin your barrel in. Put a muzzle cap on the end and it will cover that crappy inlet the kit producer left you with. Problem solved.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

tgraytn

  • Guest
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2016, 05:10:05 PM »
Many Thanks again to all who chimed in!!!  I APPRECIATE all of you comments, thoughts and advice and will take heed from here.  Wow, I am blown away from all of the responses!!  I am so glad I found this forum where I can receive all of the help!!  Thanks again guys!!!!

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19522
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2016, 06:40:47 PM »
Mike nailed it.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2016, 08:42:11 PM »
Yep, octagon barrels in a round inlet. Just fitted at breech for recoil absorption, fitted at the last few inches of the muzzle for appearance.

Keep in mind that the structure/strength of a longrifle comes from the barrel, not the flimsy shell of wood that wraps around the bottom half of the barrel. The forestock simply is a carrier for the ramrod. It also keeps you from having your mitten freeze to a cold barrel.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Long Ears

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 722
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2016, 01:14:26 AM »
Thanks Mike and Tom. Spot on replies. I was going to jump in and try to help but you old timers nailed it. Bob

Offline Joe S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
  • the other Joe S.
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2016, 02:04:29 AM »
Just out of curiosity you folks that have many builds under your belts remember your first.While I get everything your saying about what's important and what's not but did you handle your first the same way?I think with new builders me being one of them learning good habits is not a bad thing.While getting the whole barrel channel right may not be necessary what harm is there in doing it on your first build.One learns the short cuts soon enough,along the way.I mean no disrespect and get both sides of it especially if you do it to pay the bills.As I plug along on my first build there's plenty I will do different from here on out but being a little anal on the first ain't a bad thing.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 02:11:03 AM by Joe S. »

Offline SingleMalt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
  • One day I'll be considered a good builder.
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2016, 02:24:54 AM »
I've found these to be very helpful for final fitting.  Of course, they're out of stock at Brownell's, but you may find them elsewhere.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/stock-making-hand-tools/barrel-channel-cutting-tools/octagon-barrel-bedding-tool-prod6777.aspx

Never drink whisky that isn't old enough to vote.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."- Plato

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."

Jamie

  • Guest
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2016, 07:01:31 AM »
My books speak of home-made "scorps" that are single blade scrapers for the same job.  Anyone care to comment, compare?  They seem easy to make and sharpen.

Jamie

PS Good thread.

Offline M. E. Pering

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 273
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2016, 07:28:52 AM »
I have tried to keep my yap shut on this subject, but I guess I couldn't.  In a perfect world, the bottom of the barrel should mirror it's inletting.  But in the real world, this is rarely possible.  If you use inletting black of any sort, and you get 50% contact, you are doing better than 90% of the barrels out there, I would wager.  There were lots of rifle makers doing round bottoms on their forestocks since it was very labour intensive to actually cut the octagon.  And labour intensive meant less profit.  The seen was more import than that which was not seen.

But to be honest, I cut my barrel channel in an octagon, and do use inletting black to make sure the inletting is going smoothly.  Sure, it takes me a week or two to inlet one, but I think it is worth it to have the wood there, though it supports nothing but the ramrod.  A barrel channel that is round is just fine, as long as it has contact points that make the mating of the barrel to the wood feel solid.  The way I do it is just how I do it, and I understand most long rifles weren't done like this.  But they do feel solid, which they certainly are.  I also believe the web of wood can be a tiny bit better by doing it this way, since there is less chance of cracking if you have a tight fit of the barrel with the sides.

However, looking at the high spots on yours, I think I would take a very sharp 1/4" chisel and trim them.  I rarely have no gap at my muzzle... it is usually about 1/32nd.  But it is covered by the muzzle cap.  The breech end is of greatest concern... Try and make that as flush with the breech of the barrel as possible.  It is better to have a tiny gap at the top than at the bottom.  If you have gap at the bottom, there is a chance for the top to breakout at the top.  At the breech you want full contact for fullest impact absorbsion possible.  

Matt


« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 07:47:10 AM by M. E. Pering »

Thom

  • Guest
Re: Inletting Barrel Help Needed - Pictures Attached
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2016, 06:27:10 PM »
As a perpetual newbie builder ( I've been studying these rifles for 30 years ,but have only finished 4).  I must agree with Joe S. Do it right a couple of times, then you will better understand your shortcuts.

Thom
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 06:30:45 PM by Thom »