Author Topic: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question  (Read 12846 times)

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2021, 09:50:47 PM »
Yeah - you are right, JohnnyFM.  I wonder why Accuracy shooters don't use them, bench, plank or chunk?

Most likely it is an additional step that does not give EXTRA accuracy potential. On a field gun it does give a little advantage beyond ease of loading, and that is that since the rifling is an inch +/- back into the bore, a light ding on the muzzle is less likely to affect the rifling. Which is the actual purpose of the crown on newer target rifles.
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Birddog6

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2021, 10:41:34 PM »
I've coned about 15 of them I guess.  Most of them I had to tweak the load just a tad, because i changed what i built the load upon. Change barrel configuration, powder, ball size, patch, patch lube, even how many times you swab & what you swab with or not at all, will make a dif. most of the time.  You change something, it usually changes the group or the POI.  Some things effect it more than others.

After coning my .54 cal deer rifle, I had to bump it up 2 grains to get back to where I was.  I have no issues
with it & just play with each one accordingly.  Had a couple I had to do nothing. Never had any I felt I lost accuracy,
I just tweak the load a tad.


Offline dlbarr

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2024, 01:51:50 AM »
Resurrecting this thread, I guess....I don't have Mr. Woods' coning tool but, pictured below, is one that I've had for years. If memory serves correctly, I believe Steve Bookout of Toad Hall Rifle Shop manufactured this. Unlike the Woods tool, this one uses a bushing rather than a patched cleaning rag to support the "starboard end" of the cone. You do have to point the barrel downhill just slightly in order to keep the bushing from sliding down into the barrel. I coned my .54 years ago but rather than turning the cone by hand, I just gave it a couple quick spins with a drill and called it good. Thumb-started the patched ball & it shot very well with no adjustments. Have had no further need for a short starter.

My Q is this: does it seem to anyone that the bushing down in the bore could be problematic as opposed to the essentially stationary cleaning jag? Even if the bushing turned, it's made of brass so..no problem, right? Reason I'm asking is I"m getting ready to cone my .40 barrel. Thought I should double check with the expert crowd...


Offline Daryl

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2024, 04:01:53 AM »
A friend, now passed on to his reward, had a .40 cal rifle that had about 1 1/2" of coning on the muzzle. It had a .400" bore, with about .010" rifling depth.
He could not load the combination in that muzzle, that I used in my .398" bored barrel, having .010" rifling. I used a short starter and even with THAT tool,
he could not load the combination. It was a .400" ball and my .0225" denim patch. That combination loaded easily in my bore and I will show you a picture
of that crown. It is rounded and roughly 1/8" deep = NO CONE. Done with emery and my thumb, starting with 320 grit and finishing with crocus cloth.


Daryl

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Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2024, 06:28:45 PM »
I have coned two rifles with Joe Woods tool, on these threads there is always someone who has never used the tool who will tell us we will never get any kind of accuracy and will ruin our guns if we use this tool.

76-year-old eyes that see a slightly blurry back sight, coned .54, 50 yards off sand bags, initial sight adjustment after coning.
I was hitting low so I added 5 gr of powder, I aimed high with the first shot and hit high. I went back to my 6:00 hold with the slightly stouter powder load and shot the next two shots.

One of you nay sayers, tell me again how I am ruining my barrel with a Joe Woods coning tool.



Another thing, the nay sayers tell us "coning" is not historically correct for an 18th century rifle, that is because it was called "funneling" back then, not because it wasn't done.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2024, 06:51:27 PM »
Just thinking about this often brought up topic. JMHO but to test the accuracy I think a before and after 5 shot group test would be more appropriate.  ;)

Offline Bigmon

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2024, 07:05:56 PM »
I was glad to see this subject discussed here.  I have recently purchased a couple different type coning tools.  One was the Joe Wood tool in 50 cal.  The other a type that allows it's use with any caliber simply by using the correct sized JAG which screws into the end's 10-32 threads.
I have done three guns and am very satisfied.  However, I did not get any instructions with either tool.  And I hear you folks talking about the "instructions"?  Sure wish I had a set of instructions, and here is why.
I have tried using spray adhesive and with mixed results.  Soon as I add a little oil it desolves the glue.  There has to be a better way.  I mean, I get the job done but I think it could go easier if I had some instructions.
Also, two of the guns were smooth bore fowlers and they went a lot easier.  With the rifle, seemed like the emery paper kept getting snagged on the rifling.  Used a lot more paper, etc.
Finally, I would not try it with the barrel in the gun.  Maybe I am just too sloppy or haphazard, but how could I clamp the barrel in a vice while in the stock?  Or turn the barrel opposite the coning tool. (which I did not know to do as I have no directions). And finally, it can be a little messy especially using oil .  Not to mention emery paper in the vicinity of the end of your nice shiny stock>
Anyone have any directions I could get from them??  I have a few more pieces I'd like to do.
Regards, to all

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2024, 07:34:03 PM »
A good lathe with a big enough bore thru the spindle is the only way I would try this and then use Morse Taper reamers according to bore size.
The biggest mistake I made was  not getting a better lathe back when American made ones were still new.A 14x40 or 48 Clausing  was one I looked at but didn't buy when I had the money.20/20 hindsight and too late now.
Off topic question,How many of US on this forum would be non functional without spell check in place??
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Offline Dave Marsh

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2024, 07:51:17 PM »
Send Joe an email or call him.  The Firelock Shop, 5311 Briar St., Amarillo Texas 79109  (806) 352-3032. e-mail flintsteel@cox.net 
I think the any caliber tool may be from Ed Hamberg known as Longknife on this forum.  Check with him. 
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Offline Longknife

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2024, 08:06:54 PM »
Here are the instruction for my universal coning tool. You can cone any caliber from .32 to .75 with one tool. I always e-mail this link to my customers.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4375.0
Ed Hamberg

Offline hudson

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2024, 08:28:00 PM »
What David said is correct uneven pressure is the problem. With different barrels of the came caliber the guide may not fit the bore tight enough causing an uneven cut. We have all been there trying to file a flat area flat, probably splitting hairs here just a bit of perfectionist in me.

Offline bluenoser

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2024, 09:22:39 PM »
Am I correct in understanding the coned portion is about 1.5" to 2" long when a bore has been coned just enough to remove all trace of the rifling at the muzzle?  I might be wrong, but I believe a morse taper would create a much longer cone.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2024, 09:28:03 PM »
I have coned two rifles with Joe Woods tool, on these threads there is always someone who has never used the tool who will tell us we will never get any kind of accuracy and will ruin our guns if we use this tool.

76-year-old eyes that see a slightly blurry back sight, coned .54, 50 yards off sand bags, initial sight adjustment after coning.
I was hitting low so I added 5 gr of powder, I aimed high with the first shot and hit high. I went back to my 6:00 hold with the slightly stouter powder load and shot the next two shots.

One of you nay sayers, tell me again how I am ruining my barrel with a Joe Woods coning tool.



Another thing, the nay sayers tell us "coning" is not historically correct for an 18th century rifle, that is because it was called "funneling" back then, not because it wasn't done.

No where did I say coning would ruin the accuracy of your barrel. What I noted, well read it again, - it's about loading tight combinations.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2024, 10:17:24 PM »
About a dozen or so years ago I was making a half stock that would have a 34 inch barrel but I had a 42 inch GM on the gun planning to cut it down after I got it to the in the white stage. Then I was thinking it might be a good time for a before and after coning test with the 42 inch barrel before I cut it back. I got one of Ed,s tools to try but never got it done as a fellow came along and bought the gun. I still think a before and after test is the best way to see any difference in accuracy.

Offline Longknife

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2024, 10:57:37 PM »
Am I correct in understanding the coned portion is about 1.5" to 2" long when a bore has been coned just enough to remove all trace of the rifling at the muzzle?  I might be wrong, but I believe a morse taper would create a much longer cone.

My universal coning tool makes a much shorter cone. In the original coned barrels that I have inspected the cone is usually about the depth (into the bore) of the diameter of that caliber ball. Here is the type of cone that My tool produces.


Ed Hamberg

Offline bluenoser

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2024, 02:32:12 AM »
Thanks - so about 1/2" deep for a .50 cal.  That is quite a bit less than I had envisioned.  I believe it is also considerably less than my coned Getz barrel.  Purely for reference, a morse taper would cut a cone approximately 4" long, given .010" rifling.

Offline AMartin

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2024, 03:15:37 AM »
I use to own several of Joe Woods coning tools and he's a great guy by the way ... haven't seen him in many years ..
But I now own 2 of Ed's coning tools ..in case one wears out (never gonna happen ..) .. its the best thing going for this business ... so I sold the ones from Woods ..

All the original rifles I have had a chance to look at and notice a cone .. they only go about 1/2" to 3/4" deep into the bore from the muzzle , the very same way that Ed's tool will cut .. takes me about 20 minutes and that includes filing a decorative touch ..
I hate a commercial crown .. and have Jason or Bob Hoyt not to crown my barrels so I can use the cone .. almost got em trained !!
Good stuff , great topic ..

« Last Edit: February 06, 2024, 03:27:28 AM by AMartin »

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2024, 03:23:34 AM »
It wasn't you Daryl, I have seen it said from others posted on different sites.

One guy on the ML Forum essentially implied that we were all idiots for using a coning tool, he got so caustic we finally had enough of him and blocked his posts. I think he was banned or left, thank goodness.

Offline Tim S

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2024, 03:51:08 PM »
Joe Woods coning tools are awesome! I just used one yesterday on a .50 Cal barrel. Pretty simple to use and doesn't take a lot of time. Just follow Joe's instructions and it will turn out great. It will make loading a breeze. I have several in different calibers and have never seen any adverse affect on the rifle accuracy.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2024, 10:34:59 PM »
Coning barrels, as is apparently done by some is for people that don’t know any better. Not an insult, just a fact. As I have repeatedly posted people need to read page 42 of John Baird’s “Hawken Rifles..” So if you are coming more than a very few thousandths  at the very muzzle its almost surely going to negatively effect accuracy. Remember that precision measurement was impossible until the late 19th c. So the .0005 initial (5 ten thousandths) increase in bore dimension in the barrel measured was surely unnoticed by the maker. Gas escape at the muzzle must be absolutely uniform. Boring the barrel oversized at the muzzle can allow inconsistent gas escape and result in the projectile being deflected. And even a tiny amount is greatly magnified as the distance to the target increases.
But most of us shoot matches that are at large hit of miss targets and in many cases a smoothbore can shoot perfect scores or near it so accuracy is not all that important I guess. But try shooting a smoothbore in a 60 yard string measure rest match and it will show what the difference is. There are and always have been 3 classes of shooters. Gunowners, shooters and riflemen. The Militia Laws of the Colonies and early Republic resulted  in masses of “gun owners” (and as a result a lot of smoothbores in estate inventories) who could not “hit a bull in the butt with a banjo”. But they were required by law to have a gun and ammo. Then the people that shot for fun or could not see well enough and finally the serious guys. And TRUST ME the serious guys who do the work and research very often really PO the “shooter” class at matches and yeah myself and a couple of companions used to PO people at a certain match in Montana years ago. The “shooters” that ran one of them actually banned two of us on a flimsy excuse and the third member was insulted he was not banned as well.
A good rifle with load development should shoot all shots touching at 50 yards or even 100 if its calm. But it takes better sights usually than most ML have, a tang sight or a scope. And it needs to do it more than once.
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Offline Longknife

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2024, 11:29:58 PM »
I can certainly see why you were banned.
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Offline okawbow

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2024, 03:21:42 AM »
Most of the old rifles I have seen had a hand filed cone or relief at the muzzle that allows easier ball starting. There is no way that could be an exact procedure. However; if you believe the claims of accuracy made by the writers of that time, it must have worked? Maybe it just affects the ball the same every time and the effect is repeatable for accuracy?
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2024, 05:55:52 PM »
This is my group adjusted for point of aim.  I have always shot a three-shot group and measured center to center to determine MOA, taking into consideration my first Red Rider BB gun (no bird was safe) I have been doing this stuff for 70 years.

One poster suggested without a 5 shot group my target had no merit so I adjusted my target to reflect point of aim and impact.

I held on the center of the bull for the first shot that hit high, I took a 6 o'clock hold on the bottom of the orange dot for the next two shots which both hit slightly above the bull. I measured from the bottom of the dot to the center of the first two shots and the distance from the center of the bull to the center of the high shot, both measurements were the same.

I dropped the high shot to reflect the point of aim and came up with this, that's good enough for me. The barrel is a Rice .50 that I had Bobby Hoyt re-bore to .54 because I like a .54 for deer.

 

« Last Edit: February 07, 2024, 06:15:51 PM by Eric Krewson »

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2024, 07:30:07 PM »
This is my group adjusted for point of aim.  I have always shot a three-shot group and measured center to center to determine MOA, taking into consideration my first Red Rider BB gun (no bird was safe) I have been doing this stuff for 70 years.

One poster suggested without a 5 shot group my target had no merit so I adjusted my target to reflect point of aim and impact.

I held on the center of the bull for the first shot that hit high, I took a 6 o'clock hold on the bottom of the orange dot for the next two shots which both hit slightly above the bull. I measured from the bottom of the dot to the center of the first two shots and the distance from the center of the bull to the center of the high shot, both measurements were the same.

I dropped the high shot to reflect the point of aim and came up with this, that's good enough for me. The barrel is a Rice .50 that I had Bobby Hoyt re-bore to .54 because I like a .54 for deer.

 

     I like 5 or more shots to determine where the rifle is shooting because of FLYERS. A friend came out to sight in his new rifle a week before deer season. First shot was about 4 inches left and next 2 were about 3 inches right but touching each other at 25 yds. He adjusted to the left for the 2 right shots. When he missed a rested standing shot at about 50 we had to check it out and found that he was off the paper with 5 shots to the left.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Joe Wood Coning Tool Question
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2024, 07:33:14 PM »
I don't have access to my notes right now, but IIRC the half-dozen or so originals I measured for cone had about .02 widening from about 1/2" (or maybe 3/8") inside. The caveat is that my calipers only went about 1/2" back inside the bore, so the true bore size may have been smaller and the cone longer than I was able to measure. The taper was pretty consistent from gun to gun, though - I think the only one that didn't show coning was a post-1820 rifle, and I think that there was one with considerable deterioration at the muzzle that showed more, but I can't remember all that much.

I'd like to reiterate a point I made on the recent thread on short starters - period manufacturing techniques introduced a very slight choke in the bores, whereas modern techniques (AFAIK) do not. It is even possible that bores were intentionally choked, as we know fowling piece bores could be deliberately chocked and flared, if only to ensure that they weren't inadvertently funneled. Ergo, I don't think we can just assume that modern experience different load types in contemporary bores is representative of how original barrels may have behaved. I think it possible that tight loads such as used by modern target shooters may not have shown more accuracy over a looser load with a thicker patch in period bores - a thicker patch with more "give" might very well handle variations in bore-size better, particularly when using smaller charges with less chance of ball obturation. That would go a long way with reconciling the discrepancies between modern experience and what we can reconstruct of 18th and early 19th century practice.

I also wonder if changing manufacturing techniques in the 19th century might have produced more consistent bores, and if so then there might be connection between the widespread use of factory-made barrels and changing methods of loading, including the increased popularity of short starters and the successful use of conical bullets (toyed with for ages but seldom used for otherwise unknown reasons).
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