Author Topic: a done to death subject but......dove tails  (Read 7535 times)

Offline Joe S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
  • the other Joe S.
a done to death subject but......dove tails
« on: September 04, 2016, 08:37:22 PM »
Cutting in some dove tails in the barrel for holding it in the stock.They are cast ones and thought a little thick and wanted as much meat left in the barrel as possible.Keeping in mind I'm doing pretty much all this work by hand.I filed half the base off,will give me plenty left in the .58 Cal. barrel.I tried to get things as true as possible but you can see a void here and there,nothing crazy gap wise.My question,does any body put a little solder into the joint to keep moisture out?Everything will be plenty tight when I tap down the ends of the dovetails so it's not to keep them in the barrel.Getting anal about things?Was thinking more about when putting it in the cleaning bucket as far as moisture.I do use plenty of oil,just thinking to much.

Offline SingleMalt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
  • One day I'll be considered a good builder.
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2016, 10:19:43 PM »
I use a sharp center punch to stake each corner.  Never had a problem.
Never drink whisky that isn't old enough to vote.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."- Plato

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15846
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2016, 10:52:11 PM »
I have never had any problem with rusting of barrel dovetails or pin escutcheons and I almost always clean the barrels off the stock in a water bucket. I dry the barrel off with a towel, then dry the bore with clean dry patches - then oil with WD40 - no rust.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline flehto

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3335
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2016, 12:59:46 AM »
I use an upsetting chisel for bbl lug dovetails  and the rear sight . The bbl lugs are very tight because the raised metal from the upsetting chisel is peened down.  Also the flat surface in the dovetail is truly flat...no daylight visible w/ the lug installed. The rear sight dovetail's raised metal is filed into  moldings......Fred
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 01:01:23 AM by flehto »

Offline Joe S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
  • the other Joe S.
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2016, 01:21:21 AM »
Did the same thing with the upsetting chisle.Taking a second look at things I need to take one of my small triangle files and grind it flat to get a true sharp corner.I tried a small thin file to clean it up.My concern is moisture getting trapped between the barrel and lug.

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2016, 01:55:38 AM »
Okay Joe, I have not had a problem with lugs, or sights, rusting "in between." I just make sure to oil those areas each time I clean the gun. If you remember to do them during your regular maintenance you should be fine.

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline Joe S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
  • the other Joe S.
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2016, 02:12:23 AM »
As much as I read here did not ever read about rusting in between but thru it out there anyway.Thanks guys for the input.

Offline M. E. Pering

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 273
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2016, 06:54:21 AM »
Hi Joe,

   There is certainly nothing wrong with soldering them, but it seems like overkill to me.  Look at some barrels on muskets and see how thin the barrel walls actually are.  Pretty thin.  It would take a massive amount of corrosion to compromise the barrel if this is a standard octagonal one.   But if you are really concerned, one option might be to get some really thick grease and pack it into the gap, much as you would do if properly packing a wheel bearing.  Only force it in from one side until you see it coming out the other, and then stuff in some more.  Most wheel bearing grease will stand up to the temp of boiling water, but I know this would not be a historic solution to the problem.  Another solution which might be more historically correct would be to use sealing wax, like they used to use when sealing correspondence.  Pitch could also be another historically correct solution.  The problem with soldering is you have to get the barrel pretty hot to do a good job of it, but it can certainly be done.

As far as tapping in the dovetails, it makes a pretty tight connection, and if you have ever had to remove one, it takes quite a bit of force with hammer and punch.  So unless your barrel is mighty thin, I don't think I would worry about it personally.  If it were my gun, I would probably choose the sealing wax, since it would prevent the water issue.  Of course, the barrel has to be hot for this too, but not nearly as hot as it does for soldering, unless you are using a very low-temp solder.

Matt

hammer

  • Guest
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2016, 10:02:26 AM »
Makes me think of those 130 year + suppository guns in my collection I have dismantled.   There may be some surface corrosion of the barrel, even some light pitting along the line where it meets the forend but rarely anything in the barrel channel itself.  I have just spruced up an Enfield P60 (1860) rifle and the underside of the barrel is shiny blue, just as it came from the maker.  It can be surprising how much the forend protects the metal.  Obviously storage conditions are a factor.   And maintenance.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2016, 02:45:43 PM »
Just don't stand around with your gun in the rain and you should be fine. That being said, I have dove tailed and soldered lugs before, but I don't remember why. Seemed the thing to do at the time I suppose.... :-\
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline elkhorne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2016, 09:06:18 AM »
I have one of Rice's squirrel barrels in 40 cal and figure I am going to have to solder (vs dovetail) a shallow lug at least in the middle 2 lugs due to how small the barrel is and caliber. What is a good solder to not heat the barrel too much and still solder the lug on. I have some steel lugs I made of 22 ga steel but also have some thin brass I can also make them out of. I have some of the Swif 95 from Brownells. Would that be a good solder to use? Thanks for any suggestions anyone might have.
elkhorne

Offline flehto

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3335
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2016, 03:41:40 PM »
I make all my bbl lugs out of .035 sheet brass and haven't had any problems. I also use Swif 95 for soft soldering needs....eliminate tinning and holds well....Fred

Offline Frank

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 968
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2016, 08:39:44 PM »
I make all my bbl lugs out of .035 sheet brass and haven't had any problems. I also use Swif 95 for soft soldering needs....eliminate tinning and holds well....Fred

Swif 95 is great. It seems nobody sells it anymore. Glad I got some when it was still available.

Offline elkhorne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2016, 04:31:15 AM »
I am glad I also got some from Brownells before they stopped selling it. I have done some research and not found anything that seems to replace it. I have seen it repair a bolster filed to narrow at WKU and the builder soldered another piece of steel on with Swif 95 and finished the lock. No problems and you could hardly know where the repair was. Fleshto, I have some 0.032 brass that I am going to make my lugs out of. With the low temp Swif 95 (I think about 430 degrees) that should be no problem should it? I have never soldered any lugs before but with the thin Rice barrel, it seems more prudent to solder than dovetail and punch the corners.
elkhorne

Offline flehto

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3335
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2016, 04:48:02 AM »
When I solder a bbl lug onto a bbl. the lug is made w/ hi temp silver solder {1300 degrees} and then is soft soldered to the bbl. Never tried Swif 95 for the lug and also for soldering to the bbl.. Possibly it'll work.......Fred

Offline elkhorne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2016, 05:34:51 AM »
Fleshto,
You refer to a soft solder. Do you mean one of the plumbing solders like they sell at the box stores or do you have a specific brand, type that you would recommend? Thanks.
elkhorne

Offline flehto

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3335
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2016, 03:57:47 PM »
I use Swif 95 solder paste which is no longer made. Solder paste that plumbers use will do the job.....Fred

Smoketown

  • Guest
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2016, 08:55:47 PM »
Would the third one down be close?

http://www.johnsonmfg.com/temp/MAIN.HTM

Cheers,
Smoketown

Offline John Archer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 364
  • I solemnly swear that I am up to no good
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2016, 10:23:26 PM »
Yes, the 95/5 tin antimony is the same mix as Swif 95.

John
I cannot be left unsupervised.
(Sent from my immobile dial-operated telephone)

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2398
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2016, 03:36:31 AM »
I use a sharp center punch to stake each corner.  Never had a problem.

To each his own.

I personally think that looks ugly and crude.  It also makes a bigger mess if you ever need to move the sight.  
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 03:37:13 AM by Scota4570 »

Offline Joe S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
  • the other Joe S.
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2016, 11:56:25 AM »
I think we are talking about the lugs,won't be seen when it's in the stock.

Offline stuart cee dub

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 461
Re: a done to death subject but......dove tails
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2016, 09:06:41 PM »
Nothing wrong with soft soldering them if there is a gap. Sure it can be belt and suspenders but it won't move either.And you'll never worry about it again.

The old smiths (probably )never did it but they did it for a living ,were quite good at what they did and used all sorts of little time savers. As hobby builders we stumble along learning as we go and make more mistakes.Soft solder it and move on especially if it has a touch of looseness.For some really thin- through- the- waist modern swamped barrels its better than making a deeper dovetail.