Author Topic: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?  (Read 13393 times)

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Can any of you tell me the muzzle velocity and foot pounds of energy for the following load?  If able to say, what's the light load doing at 50 yards as well?

50 grains Goex 2f, patched .715 round ball weighing 550 grains, percussion ignition, 28" barrel.

Thinking of deer hunting with his load this year.  Curiosity spurred the questions regarding speed and energy of the load.

I know it sure rings a gong!

Thanks for any numbers and best regards, Skychief

PS, if any of you have experience hunting with 12 gauge round balls, I'm all ears.  Would like to hear some field reports if possible.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 10:47:25 AM by Skychief »

Offline Mauser06

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2016, 02:39:55 AM »
That's a hefty ball and not much powder...


Any reason for such the light powder load?  Other than I'm betting it lays a thumping if you get much more powder under it...



I have no answer or experience with that...just seems awful light for that heavy of a ball..

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2016, 04:38:33 AM »
Mauser, the 715 is a tight fit with the thinnest patch material I had on hand.  Doubt that it would mic ten thousandths.

70 grains burnt tore the patching, 60 at times. It handled the 50 grains fine.

I may use the gun for deer this season with a certain spot in mind.  I can't see shooting any farther that 50 yards there and more likely, 15-20 yards.

The way the load pummeled my gongs, I'm not worried about any more horsepower.  Yeah, the lightweight gun lets you know that it's going off.


Hopefully someone will chime in with some numbers (fps and fpe), and maybe some field experiences to relate about hunting will 12 gauge roundballs.

Thanks for your reply. 

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2016, 06:53:37 AM »
What accuracy are you getting?  I consider a 50 gr powder load as a light one in my .54   I haven't chronographed your load but I would suspect it's doing 700 or less. Much less at 50 yards.  I shoot .715 and .735 balls in my 10 bore with 100 to 140 gr FFg.  If your patch isn't holding up, try a wad under it. Also try a wad/ball/wad  with out a patch  Accuracy might surprise you.  I think I'd want at lest 70 to 80 gr for hunting

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2016, 07:02:19 AM »
Getting minute-of-deer accuracy with the load.  Shot gongs today instead of paper/measuring groups.

Best regards, Skychief

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2016, 04:04:12 PM »
I also think the charge is a little light for a sure kill if things go a little wrong. I have used a greased felt wad under a patched ball with some success. I'm a little puzzled by the giant caliber, and the little stumpy barrel. I would suspect you aren't going to be able to Jack the charge up very much before you start spitting up burned powder out on the ground.

  Hungry Horse

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2016, 04:40:18 PM »
Along the general lines of what Hungry Horse said, have you tried a 12 gauge lubed fiber wad under an unpatched ball with a thin over shot card over the ball?  Or a 12 gauge lubed fiber wad under a patched ball?  Those combinations often work very well in a smooth bore.

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2016, 05:45:52 PM »
I haven't moleeyes.  I've run out of ball.  Will monkey more with different loads after a trip to Friendship.

Best regards, Skychief

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15846
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2016, 09:59:10 PM »
Pistol charge in a rifle - interesting.
That amount of powder and size of ball will kill the buffalo you are riding your horse beside him, so I guess it should also kill a deer- even to 50yards.  

I prefer more powder myself and adjust ball size and/or patch thickness so they do not burn.  .010" patches are not even thick enough for cleaning patches and barely make it as a snot rag - in my opinion, of course.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 05:42:12 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2016, 11:25:31 PM »
I couldn't agree more Daryl.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15846
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2016, 05:57:45 AM »
Although I hold NO truck with FPE as having anything to do with actual killing power, I will attempt some estimates and provide the results with your stats.

50gr. of 2F and a .715" ball from a 28" bl., with the probable blowby (even though the patches aren't burnt crisps) I'd estimate about 600fps.

600 x 600  x 545 (from my mould) = 196,2000,000 divided by 450240 = fpe of 435.77fpe.  If it got 700fps- highly unlikely, it would generate 593.18FPE

This is about the same as a 28" .45 calibre ML rifle loaded with .445" RB and 40gr. of powder (454fpe),  with an equal 50gr., 592fpe.

These stats taken from Lyman's outdated Black Powder Handbook. We know their speeds to be way out of whack with what today's powders deliver, thus the .45 would produce approx. 200fps higher speed, which would increase it's FPE to 748 - LOL.

If you generate enough FPS & Momentum to penetrate to and through the vital organs, fpe is meaningless.  The formula itself is used to assign inappropriate "power" to higher velocity loads, even though of less actual killing power.

For Example - a .36 calibre round ball, driven through a 43" (Lyman's Stats) by 70gr. 3f G-0, produces 2,505fps and 988fpe.  Does this load produce more killing power than a 100gr. 2F load in a Bess at 860fpe - at the muzzle?  What about at 50 yards?  

I'd say negative.

Due to the low initial velocity which is well below the speed of sound, the big ball will slow very little over the 50yard range.  50 yards would be still point blank - maybe 50 to 75fps slower than MV - for the .715" ball. Even if it started at 700fps, it would still be making 642fps at 50 yards and the slower it is going, the less it will lose.

The a-fore mentioned .36cal. ball will slow an incredible amount - dropping it's speed to just over 700fps, some 800fps less than it's MV according to Lyman. This drops it's FPE from 988fpe to 412fpe.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 08:01:58 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2016, 04:16:33 AM »
Thanks much Daryl.

Best regards, Skychief

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2016, 03:59:09 PM »
Lyman Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual 2nd Edition shows a .75 caliber smoothbore load in a 42 inch barrel, .715 round ball of 545 grains, .020 patch lubed with Crisco and using Goex 2F powder.  50 grains gave 662 fps with 530 Ft.Lbs muzzle energy, down to 582 fps and 410 FPE at 100 yards.  They show loads up to 120 grains.  60 grains went 754 fps and 688 FPE and at 100 yds 662 fps and 530 FPE.
Herb

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15846
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2016, 06:42:15 PM »
My book presents loads to 150gr. 2f G-O powder at 1,213fps, 1,778fpe at the muzzle but gives no downrange stats with 130gr., 140gr. nor 150gr.
The guns used by Lyman was their imported Italian Brown Bess with a .750" bore. A truel 12 bore barrel will have a .730" bore, unless of modern build, then perhaps up to .740".

If your gun has a true .730" bore,  a 13 bore ball of .705" diameter will allow thicker patches.

The mould I have in this size, made by Jeff Tanner, cost $30.00 US, shipped to my door - some years ago. I see they are now 30 pounds.

http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/moulds.html
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2016, 08:18:14 PM »
Quote
Pistol charge in a rifle - interesting.
I was in a WoodsWalk once and carrying my .62 rifle.  At one of the stations, a .45 ACP case was hanging on a string.  Instructions were to use it as a powder charger and shoot a hanging plowshare 15 yards distant.  I was absolutely convinced that my ball would never clear the barrel and told everyone to go ahead of me.  When I finally shot it, it whomped the target and broke the chain from which it was suspended.  Who woulda thunk it?
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15846
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2016, 09:48:39 PM »
Been there, Dave - tiny powder charges work for other purposes too.   I am sure the plow share may have been ready to fall from about any hit or perhaps a high wind jiggling the tree.
 
I shoot 10 to 20gr. charges in most of my larger rifles - adjusted to bore size - as a final cleaning load back at the start of the trial.

Loading this with a wet patch, effectively cleans out most of the fouling buildup at the breech of the rifle from the previous 40 to 100 shots.  The patched ball MUST be seated on the powder - not a difficult job at all with a wet patch - The patched ball cannot be left to stand proud of the little charge or is it not only useless as a breech cleaning load, but also could be dangerous - you do NOT want a space between ANY black powder charge and the ball or bullet.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2016, 02:16:44 AM »
Thank you all for your replys.

Best regards, Skychief

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2016, 03:13:32 AM »
You do not say what your bore diameter is...only that you are using a .715" ball (pure lead I presume)  You see, I cannot provide data for a situation that lacks important particulars.

I can tell you a fact though.  In the winter of 1979 I loaded my Japanese Brown Bess musket, 42" X .75 cal barrel with a .735" ball and a .023" denim patch lubed with grease of some kind, probably Crisco, over 100 grains of FFg G-O black powder and at 100 paced yards, shot a moose on the shoulder, breaking the leg bone, penetrating the lungs and both scapulae, the offside leg bone and stopping on the hide on the off side.  The moose died almost immediately after walking head down for another five strides.

Second fact:  we chrono'd the load some time later and discovered this load generated just over the speed of sound.  Now you don't need this kind of whack to kill whitetailed deer, but it doesn't hurt.  Try to get the most out of your rifle rather than the least.

Again, some more details about bore diameter etc. will be helpful.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2016, 11:39:13 PM »
Taylor, the bore measures .720.  The patching wasn't mic'd but wasn't over .010 and lubed with mutton tallow.  Yes, the .715's were pure lead.

Best regards, Skychief

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15846
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2016, 05:24:43 AM »
If smooth - then a .720 should be using a .690" Lee or Lyman . For many of us, that would be requisite to give you a good size that can be properly patched. Thin patches do not carry much lube - certainly not enough to keep the fouling soft in a large bore.  500fps will kill your deer - BUT - what is the trajectory over 50yards - how accurate is it?
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline bigsmoke

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 438
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2016, 11:54:37 PM »
Sky Chief,
We are talking apples and oranges here, or dogs and cats or whatever.  But my experience is with .72 cal rifled guns, slow twist and shallow rifling.  For hunting, I used 200 grains Ffg.
At 50 yards, that would punch big holes into diamond plate, oxygen cylinders, etc.
At 100 yards it would roll a bison from standing on his feet to having his feet directly into the air.
I think the beartooth bullets website has an interesting set of chrono tables and formulas for your use.
I found the same thing with charred patches, so I went to using pre lubed Ox Yoke 12 ga cushion wads over the powder and under the patched ball.  By doing that, it wiped the bore and left a thin layer of lube on the bore surfaces;  it prevented the blow by of gasses, thus preserving the integrity of the patch; and finally, it actually increased the speed of the ball by about 50 fps, IIRC.
I would opine with the rest of the fellows who suggested that you get a smaller ball so you can go with a thicker patch.  I believe you will be happier with the results.  There are several places that sell various diameters of r/b that you can try before investing in a mould.  And Jeff Tanner is certainly a good choice.  His moulds cast a good ball and they are priced right, although I am not sure he  sells the bigger ones as inexpensively as was previously noted.
Happy hunting.
John

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15846
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2016, 02:03:02 AM »
.601" to .850 - $30.00 US for the blocks, payable to a PO in California - or used to be. The longest shipping on a mould after ordering, was to my door in a small box- 7 days after I placed the order. I have 4 or 5 of them now, .595" and up top .740".

http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/images/BMM.jpg

And AGAIN:

http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/images/BMM.jpg
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 02:03:44 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2016, 03:03:43 AM »
Thanks very much John and Daryl.  Much appreciated, Skychief

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2016, 03:33:46 AM »
.601" to .850 - $30.00 US for the blocks, payable to a PO in California - or used to be. The longest shipping on a mould after ordering, was to my door in a small box- 7 days after I placed the order. I have 4 or 5 of them now, .595" and up top .740".

http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/images/BMM.jpg

And AGAIN:

http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/images/BMM.jpg

Yeah, and to be perfectly clear that's .601, .602, .603,... .850" -ANY- size no extra charges.  

Love my .530 from Mr. Tanner!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 03:46:34 AM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2016, 07:03:29 PM »
 Once again you guys are forgetting its a 28" barrel, with a .720 bore. You don't have enough barrel to burn these buffalo charges. IMO this gun is going to be a short range hunting gun. I believe that when you find out just how much powder this gun will, or will not,  burn completely in the length of the barrel, you will discover the real killing energy is pretty much gone beyond a hundred yards. This is another example of a gun built to accommodate the shooter, but won't get the job done due to its caliber/barrel length limitations.

   Hungry Horse