FPS & FPE for .715 (550 gr), over 50 gr 2f Goex, out of 28" barrel?

[Ron Wehmeyer]

For what its worth , The Kongsberg Jaeger M1803/41/51  .72 cal rifled  28-3/4" barrel used a cast lead bullet of approx. 700 gr. in a paper cartridge with a service charge of 71 gr. of course musket powder, .  On the specimen I have and others I have seen . The original sights start at 300 and continue through 600 . Now that is not 300-600 yds. That is (Ell) 1 Ell= .6275 Meter or .686 Yd.  So 300 Ell's = 188 Meter or 205 Yd. That is the lowest setting for the M1803/41/51 .   Now can you hit with the rifle and load is one thing . But it is very much Lethal at those ranges. I realize the OP has stated that he was using a Rb. approx. .715 and around 550 gr.  and about 50 gr. of powder in the 28" barrel.  I have no test or experience with that load , but will say this , I do know that at 600 Ell's the load above mentioned is very deadly if flesh is hit with it. (The Op's load 's energy would not be all but gone at 100 yds).  Now conecting with such a load is up to the shooter, but the load would be deadly in my opinion.  Again for what its worth, prob. not much! A good read ( The Sandy Hook Test) is 400-500 gr. lead falling out of the sky at 200 fps. Leathal ? You Bet!   My Best,   Ron Wehmeyer

[Hungry Horse]

 My reply is this is comparing apples to oranges. The gun you compare the afore mentioned gun to is shooting a bullet, not  round ball, no doubt has shallow rifling to accommodate said bullet, and sights that allow it to quite literally be shot like a mortar. And is designed as a military weapon, that doesn't require a clean kill. There are no hunter ethics on a battlefield, and wounding is often considered preferable to outright killing.

  Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

Interesting thing about a ball - or bullet or arrow for that matter.  When sub-sonic - they slow down VERY slowly, that is they lose very little speed over distance.  A round ball started at 600fps is likely still making 500fps or maybe 525fps at 100yards.  Would I use that for hunting - no way, just noting it. however, in a pistol, that 50gr. charge with a .700" round ball would certainly do for dispatching a wounded animal at very close range.

Standard barrel length for SXS rifles of the 19th century for hunting large and dangerous game in India was 22" to 26" depending on the size.  The larger the bore - the shorter the barrels.  Standard charges were in the mid range between 125gr. and 300gr., again, depending on bore size.  The sporting powders of 1860 were much superior to ours even today - except maybe 2F or 3F Swiss. I think you will find a large bore will burn quite a bit of powder in very short barrel.

There is a side by side smoothbore sighted 4 bore on another web site being discussed right now - about 20" to 22" of barrel and 4 bore - 1.052" if true 4 bore. Standard load would be 8 to 12 drams with a round ball - ie: 218gr. to 328gr. with a ball running 5 to the pound, or 1,400gr. in pure lead.

My velocity increased at a steady rate from 60gr. to 165gr. in my 14 bore - 31" bl.  To make Forsyth's drop figures, I had to use 165gr. 2F from 1986 to about 2004. After that time, I could get the same trajectories with 140gr.

[Ron Wehmeyer]

My reply is this is comparing apples to oranges. The gun you compare the afore mentioned gun to is shooting a bullet, not  round ball, no doubt has shallow rifling to accommodate said bullet, and sights that allow it to quite literally be shot like a mortar. And is designed as a military weapon, that doesn't require a clean kill. There are no hunter ethics on a battlefield, and wounding is often considered preferable to outright killing.

  Hungry Horse

     Describing the Kongsber Jaeger was not to compare it to the OP's firearm, as its equal. It was meant to establish a level of power that could be had from a 28-3/4" barrel with a relatively small powder charge of 71 gr. This load combo  is leathal at over 400 yds. If the target is hit .  The load described by the OP is lighter on powder and ball weight , and very close to the same barrel lenth . I'm guessing the OP's load would be leathal at the 50yd.  mark on a deer . The ethical part to use it or not, is the hunters decision only. IMHO , I would bet that over the yrs. many of table has had deer served, with loads very similar, and may be a bit less. ,,,DT

[Mad Monk]

My velocity increased at a steady rate from 60gr. to 165gr. in my 14 bore - 31" bl.  To make Forsyth's drop figures, I had to use 165gr. 2F from 1986 to about 2004. After that time, I could get the same trajectories with 140gr.

For what it is worth.  I am assuming that the figures you give were based on the use of GOEX black powder.
That "about 2004" would coincide with when GOEX finally got their charcoal supplier problem in hand.  That was a topic of discussion between Mick Fahringer and myself at the Harrisburg, PA Sportsman's Show in 2005.  That came into play when he asked me to take a close look at the then new "Express" powder.  Between 1998 and 2004 they had no end of problems with charcoal suppliers they tried.  In one case I saw 100 fps difference in two lots of 3F packed 1 day apart.  That with a charge of 80 grains in the 50 cal. Lyman Trade Rifle with patched round balls.  Once they got the charcoal supply problem well in hand velocities went up and shooters saw less bore fouling.  With more lot to lot uniformity in velocities.

[bob in the woods]

Those differences in powder in 98, 99 etc meant lot if target shooting..especially at distances. 1998 was when I began to buy powder by the case and kept track of lot #s.   Picking up a can or two here and there  just wasn't worth it if you were serious about accuracy.

[Daryl]

My velocity increased at a steady rate from 60gr. to 165gr. in my 14 bore - 31" bl.  To make Forsyth's drop figures, I had to use 165gr. 2F from 1986 to about 2004. After that time, I could get the same trajectories with 140gr.

For what it is worth.  I am assuming that the figures you give were based on the use of GOEX black powder.
That "about 2004" would coincide with when GOEX finally got their charcoal supplier problem in hand.  That was a topic of discussion between Mick Fahringer and myself at the Harrisburg, PA Sportsman's Show in 2005.  That came into play when he asked me to take a close look at the then new "Express" powder.  Between 1998 and 2004 they had no end of problems with charcoal suppliers they tried.  In one case I saw 100 fps difference in two lots of 3F packed 1 day apart.  That with a charge of 80 grains in the 50 cal. Lyman Trade Rifle with patched round balls.  Once they got the charcoal supply problem well in hand velocities went up and shooters saw less bore fouling.  With more lot to lot uniformity in velocities.

Actually, my velocity increased fairly steadily up to 1,700fps at 200gr. 2F in the late 1980's.  I settled on a standard moose load of 6 drams (163.8gr.) - which I called 165gr. for a standard number.

I never again attempted to achieve 1,700fps with the 480gr. round ball, however, that 165gr. charge now gives me a zero at 200 meters, rather than 200yards as before. It averages 7" high at 200yards.

It is an amazing thing, from a Western-hunting aspect, to get a 6" point blank range to 125yards with a large bore round ball -  (3" above to 3"below LOS) and without any great recoil or discomfort.

[Skychief]

Daryl, with the possibility of derailing my own thread.....Did you take a moose?  How did the load perform?

Thanks, Skychief

[Daryl]

165gr. 2F- .684" pure lead ball in .030" patch.  Shot though a sea of willow bushes- fdddddddddddddddT-WHUCK!Right on the on-side leg, middle of the body. I had aimed about 6" aft of that.  Staggered the moose a step sideways - he threw his head up into the air, then staggering, turned around, back legs buckling slightly - I smacked him in the other side, ball went across taking a 6" piece of rib with it, puncturing & slicing the bottom of both lungs and sticking between ribs on the other side. That WW ball made a 3" round hole through both lungs stopping higher in the leg the first ball hit, smashing it yet again, about 4" above the first ball's impact. Down he went. Works! That ball was under the hide of his leg, between muscle and hide.

The second shot was a WW ball in a paper ctg. - same 165gr. charge - same point of impact.  At that time, due to a LOT of practicing, I was able to shoot, then load and fire an aimed shot 8 seconds after the first shot.

This is slow loading due to using a patched round ball & not being in a hurry.

[Skychief]

Excellent!  Thanks Daryl and congratulations.