Author Topic: Vogler patchbox release  (Read 7224 times)

Offline RAT

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Vogler patchbox release
« on: September 12, 2016, 05:38:42 PM »
I'm looking for photos that illustrate the patchbox release mechanism that the Vogler family used on rifles they produced in North Carolina. This is the release with the button located in the top side plate of the patchbox. I seem to remember someone making a rifle with this type of release and posting photos. I searched, but didn't find it.
Bob

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2016, 07:48:07 PM »


This is the release I made for my Jacob Kuntz rifle project.  It has a button that pierces the upper patch box plate.  It may be similar to what you seek.




« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 07:55:38 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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greybeard

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2016, 09:27:41 PM »
This is how I did it. No button to push. under the side plate is a pin. I relieve the wood under the side plate and to open the lid you only have to press on the corner of the side plate'


« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 03:03:01 AM by greybeard »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2016, 10:24:11 PM »
Boy, that Kuntz gun turned out to be a real klunker.... ;)
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greybeard

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2016, 11:16:15 PM »
Mike!! surley you jest??     Bob

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2016, 12:55:17 AM »
Taylor,  I love that patchbox!

Offline Daryl

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2016, 01:42:06 AM »
Boy, that Kuntz gun turned out to be a real klunker.... ;)

Nasty bit of kit!
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Online smylee grouch

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2016, 02:28:53 AM »
I have done two rifles with that type of patchbox latch but they didn't turn out quite as nice as that Kuntz Taylor. I never get tired of looking at that rifle.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2016, 02:40:59 AM »
Mike I take that as a compliment.  I used thin brass (,032") as Kuntz was famous for, but never again....040" is as thin as I will go in the future.  There was some serious inletting there, that's for certain.
Thanks all for your comments.  I like greybeard's application - the flexible corner of the plate is all that is needed to trip the latch.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2016, 10:37:00 AM »
This is my post from last winter. Not a Vogler but from your description sounds very similar to what Frederick Sell used occasionally.  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=38836.0
Joel Hall

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2016, 02:21:09 PM »
Boy, that Kuntz gun turned out to be a real klunker.... ;)

Nasty bit of kit!
I'm a little rusty on my Canadian slang...... :-\ but of course I was complementing (through jest) Taylor's patchbox, the finished pictures are stunning. I don't think there is anything that man can't do.
 I actually have been wondering how those NC box latches work, having never had the chance to have one of those guns apart...now I know!
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2016, 03:28:35 PM »
Have built a couple Klutz rifles. Sure didn't turn out like Taylor's. Excellent work Taylor.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2016, 04:16:59 PM »
Boy, that Kuntz gun turned out to be a real klunker.... ;)

Nasty bit of kit!
I'm a little rusty on my Canadian slang...... :-\ but of course I was complementing (through jest) Taylor's patchbox, the finished pictures are stunning. I don't think there is anything that man can't do.
 I actually have been wondering how those NC box latches work, having never had the chance to have one of those guns apart...now I know!

LOL -  "bit of kit" is more Aussie or British slang, I'd think.   That the rifle is an amazing bit of work, is evident. It shoots OK, too - for a little pee shooter .40.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline louieparker

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2016, 05:08:39 PM »
Awhile back I did a Bench copy of an iron mounted southern rifle. The box opened by pushing down on the end of the upper side plate. The differance was the hook latch on the box lid was turned the other directions. So the movement of the bottom latch was opposite of the one shown here. I don't know how he made the lower latch move toward the toe plate. The butt plate screws were undisturbed and I was afraid of messing them up. I did the outside as he did but inside was my design. But I have always wondered why and how he did it.( Have you seen this before ? ) Nothing on this rifle was very typical so the  latch was no surprise.  Louie

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2016, 07:04:04 PM »
I hear ya Louis! I have seen a couple of those N. Carolina rifles where even the front trigger curls forward instead of the usual curl to the rear. :o  I think a few of those boy's may have been working mighty close to the local still.
Joel Hall

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2016, 08:00:23 PM »
I hear ya Louis! I have seen a couple of those N. Carolina rifles where even the front trigger curls forward instead of the usual curl to the rear. :o  I think a few of those boy's may have been working mighty close to the local still.
Those "Tarheels" always did have their own way of doing things! While us "Sorebacks" (VA) tended to stick more to tradition.
Dennis
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Offline draken

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2016, 12:42:17 AM »
Taylor, what holds the sideplates in place?  I thought maybe pins,
 but I enlarged the image to 400% without seeing any.   ???
Dick 

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Offline Daryl

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2016, 01:35:15 AM »
Taylor, what holds the sideplates in place?  I thought maybe pins,
 but I enlarged the image to 400% without seeing any.   ???

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2016, 04:50:40 AM »


I used a number of escutcheon pins.  I made a former to re-form the heads to a countersink head, cut burrs along the sides of the pins so they wouldn't back out, and drove 'em in.  The picture above shows the box before it was bent to contour with the stock.  Sorry about the departure from the thread's subject...
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Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2016, 05:11:12 AM »
This is not an uncommon style of patch box release, but the earliest example I have seen in the research I have done I attribute to John Shriver of York county PA.  But that is just because we don't have any of Ludwig Shriver's work, his father, to see if he learned it from him.  

If you look at Majorjoel's excellent post on the Frederick Sell rifle, he uses a similar release.  If you compare the work of sell with that of John Shriver, a good case can be built that Sell apprenticed under Shriver.  Even some of his patch box engraving was almost an exact copy of Shriver's.  And of course, they both resided in York county, PA.  Some people might argue that Frederick apprenticed with his father, Jacob, and I would agree that he did.  But I also believe he apprenticed with Shriver, for some reason or another.  Much as today, many of the ancient gunsmiths knew of one another, traded work, and generally helped each other out for mutual benefit.

How the Vogel's came to settle on this design, I have not discovered yet.  Perhaps someday, I will find something that will be indicative.  

Matt
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 05:13:06 AM by M. E. Pering »

Offline RAT

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Re: Vogler patchbox release
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2016, 05:12:23 PM »
Thanks to everyone for the photos. Taylor... that was the tread I was remembering. Joel... I don't remember seeing that post. It was great, thanks. Sorry it's taken me so long to reply. I'm only on this inter-web thing once a week or so.
Bob