A masterpiece rifle

[Blacksmoke]

Mike --I totally understand your position---I've been in the muzzle loading realm for over thirty yrs. now and am quite familiar with the "romantic " idea of be able to make a living from the proceeds of gun making.  In today's society that is all that it is--a romantic idea. Unless there is some kind of supplement it just isn't practical. We have a whole different set of economic values to live by then the original makers did--- so it is truly a different world out there. However I complement you for trying and good luck to you.         Hugh Toenjes

[Mike Brooks]

Romantic.....I've been building guns for 30 years next year. Started full time in 1996 with no supplements of any kind. I paid off my house 10 years early, put my wife through 2 1/2 years of full time  college in the past few years and had my most profitable year ever last year. Gun #281 is on it's way out the door next week. I have tendinitis in both elbows and a torn rotator cuff in my left shoulder, hardly romantic.   I have had "real" jobs, they aren't what they're cracked up to be... I'll take gun building over everything else I've tried.....of course you can't doddle around much if you're going to make a living.

[Blacksmoke]

Mike--- congratulations! however you are not the norm by any means  not even in the CF gunmaker's world as I have come to learn since I was admitted to the American Custom Gunmakers Guild earlier this year in Reno NV.           Hugh Toenjes

[Daryl]

Beautiful looking rifle, Hugh, and wonderfully executed for what it is.  BUT - I do have to agree with the contemporary 'masters', it represents no particular maker's rifle, being a combination of 'schools', areas and periods, much like my 'Al Brown' rifle, in that respect.

[Blacksmoke]

Perhaps a response from a contemporary "master" should be posted again regarding the "masterpiece rifle" in case you missed it, so here it is:

[Mike Brooks]

Good Golly, I'm going to have to get somebody important to say nice things about me so I can brag about it......
 By the way, I like Jerry as a person, but have never been overly excited about his work, so a raving review from him doesn't mean a whole lot to me other than he thinks your work is technically good. His work is outstanding, don't get me wrong, he's a technical master. He just doesn't build stuff that knocks me over, I just have different tastes is all. One of the last guns he built really turns my crank though. That late flint period English 1/2 stock Indian presentation rifle was in my opinion the best gun I have ever seen him do...I believe he called it his "hunting rifle".
 I wonder, if you had to critique your gun yourself, what would you say about it? I know I can really hammer my own stuff.

[Don Getz]

Hugh......I assume you made this gun to gain entry into the American Custom Gunmakers Guild, as your showpiece.  I was
under the impression that most of the people belong to that organization built mostly modern guns, Including Mark Silver.
One cannot dispute your abilities, or those of Jerry Huddleston.....both of you guys are outstanding, but, they go way beyond normal, or outstanding, kentucky rifle builders.   Monte Mandarino has done some outstanding work, and a lot of
his guns are taken directly from the French Gunsmith Design books....something very few people do, and he did it well.
My biggest complaint on your work is the architecture of the gun....it doesn't conform, or copy, any typical kentucky rifle
that I know of.  For instance, why didn't you copy an Armstrong, and then really gussy it up.....that would have the guys
mumbling.  If I had to "grade" this gun, it would get an A+ for silver wire work, engraving, carving, and overall finish, but
a C or D or architecture.  I can imagine the turmoil this would create if this were entered at Dixon's......these guys are hard nosed, how does it compare to original kentuckies, etc., on the other hand, it sure would attract a lot of attention....Don

[Collector]

I've not an ounce of the talent represented on this Board.  I only collect, purchase and sell antique and contemporary pieces and on occasion make a small accoutrement for myself or purchase a piece that just captures that set of elements that I desire.  Art, in and of itself, is as subjective a form of expression as may be found amongst many other topics, even those that are presented as a 'science.'  I'll not debate nor hold one opinion on this particular topic over another, although I do reserve, as anyone else is entitled to, an opinion on it.  I am and will remain, just a quiet man among you.  So, without further comment, I submit, in response to this somewhat protracted, yet still civil dialogue and in substitution for my sometimes considered opinion the following:

Dead horse image removed... no matter how many times it was killed and buried, it was dug up and beat on again.

[lew wetzel]

thats great.....and very politically correct!!!!!

[jwh1947]

I am reading with interest the comments on this gun.  Don is correct in his overall assessment and perhaps this might help explain things.  Don and I live in central Pennsylvania.  Gun building never died here.  "Kentucky" rifles have been built here in every decade since about 1750.  The ones built after 1940 or thereabouts we arbitrarily call contemporaries. 

 As most of us know, regional characteristics evolved.  When a person contracts with one of us to build a rifle he/she normally starts by requesting a certain county or regional architecture along with the traditional embellishment packages that normally accompanied that form.  Then, and only then, do the builder's personality and art enter the picture. 

There is no substitute for handling, disassembling. studying and shooting originals.  You can only learn so much from books and pictures.  You need to know how the originals were made and what architectural and structural differences made a Lancaster a Lancaster and  Lehigh a Lehigh.  After mastering a school or two, some builders go off in ultra-modern directions but still one can usually observe the evolution and adaptations of regional characteristics within their work.

True, this piece may not fare that well at Dixons, but that is a mixed bag in itself.  Dixon's will look at a piece and they had better know at a glance what the builder was attempting architecturally or the piece is dead in the water.  The down side there is that the judges are human, have their own biases, and go from a mental template that may or may not be accurate on any specific issue.  There is a formula in any judged contest, and part of the game is finding out what the recipe calls for. 

If Hugh can put food on the table by doing his own thing and orders start coming in, he might as well proceed in like kind.  Otherwise, there's room for an artist like Hugh to try his hand within an established and confined architectural style.  If he chooses to grow in this area, the results should be outstanding.  His patience and skill base for wire work clearly exceed mine.  JWH

[Don Getz]

I agree with the  "dead horse" issue, I'm moving on..................Don

[Blacksmoke]

jwh1947,Hi Wayne,    Yes it's been a few yrs. since I had a visit with you.  I wondered where you at these days as I am sure you have wondered the same about  me.  Anyway thanks for your input on the "masterpiece rifle" thread.  I respect your credentials and the critique you have offered. You are 100% correct in your judgement regarding the handling and  the examining of old originals to learn the subtle features that should accompany an "authentic" replica. However this produces somewhat of a problem for those of us who live in the west esp. the west coast. We have to rely on pictures and videos etc. However the rifle in question was not built to be judged in any particular arena except that of the "membership committee" of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild at Reno NV. I was granted membership without hesitation! This rifle was also made to please me and to exhibit the various self-taught skills that I have gathered through the years, without the use of a collection of the old Kentuckys for reference. When I met you at Sun Peaks Resort B.C. You had a chance to examine the rifle in person. I have not forgotten what you told me at that time. " This the best example of a contemporary Long rifle that I have ever seen". I took those words as "sincere"- I still do!   I have since joined the KRA with the hopes that I will yet discover the excitement of being able to get up close and personal with as many old originals as possible-- several are now in my vault and I want to add more as my economy will allow.  Later this spring I might even make it to the annual KRA show and points beyond such as the "Nicholas Hawk" shop at Nazereth.  Anyway I can dream can't I?      Hugh Toenjes

[Mike R]

I have tried to stay out of this one, but...where is it written that modern makers of "kentucky" rifles have to copy some old master?  Certainly has not stopped the House boys and their clones from starting the Woodbury school. The rifle illustrated here is a fine-looking piece of art that to my mind reflects the spirit of the longrifle, even if not a direct copy of any school--even if a mixture of schools--even if a fantasy gun.  As to giving it a C or D in architecture--as compared to what?  It stands on its own merits.  It clearly was not an attempt to copy any particular pre-existing architecture, although, with limited architectural elements available, any such gun will have some old and possibly mixtures of old elements. Are we to judge modern longrifles only by the yardstick of the few surviving originals?  That does a disservice to the creative arts. Are we all to become copyists?  I have forgotten which famous Renaissance artist said, "it is a poor student who does not surpass his master" [I think it was Da Vinci], meaning of course, that in his day artists 1st learned by copying, then the better ones did their own thing.

[Don Getz]

Hugh....it would be great if you could make it to Carlisle and the KRA show, I know you would enjoy it.  Would enjoy meeting you and talking.   If you can't make it this year, it will be a little closer next year as the annual KRA show will be
moved westward, just north of Pittsburgh.  You would also enjoy Dixon's annual event, which is also close to the Henry
Museum, the new/old Nicholas Hawk shop, etc..........Don

[Blacksmoke]

Mike R---  Amen!  (don't even need spell check for this response)        Hugh Toenjes

[jwh1947]

It's time for you to trek east where these things reside.  With KRA in western PA and both old and new stuff at Lexington, KY, you should just do it.  Incidentally, last time I looked, you were the onlyKRA member in the Dakotas.  Somewhat isolated compared to these parts where there are more than I can count on one hand  within a 45-minute ride from here.  Ditto for gun builders, and some really good ones, too. 

 Lately I've been doing a few pistols and early-PA hunting rifles, as that is what my customers tend to want. About 1/2 of my work is restoration these days.  Not taking orders from anyone who can't bring it to the shop.  The local cadre of auctioneers, collectors and hunters keeps our regional cartel of builders active.  I pick my jobs somewhat carefully these days as I do a lot of traveling.  If a potential customer is in a hurry or seeking a bargain, I refer him to someone else.  Incidentally, right now, cartridge military firearms are occupying about 1/2 my bench time, and sales of militaries are way up, from Rev. to WWII.  Good old stuff getting harder to find, so specimens that were deemed "too far gone" years ago are now appearing as candidates for enhancement. 

Hope to see you sometime soon. JWH