Got Grandfathers Rifle shooting, shoots way right, help

[dwr435]

So I got my Grandfathers old KIT rifle cleaned up and working but it shoots way right.

FIE Italy .45cal Long Rifle style

Used a patch to determine the twist, came out to 1 in 24, did it three times, just to make sure

Took it to the range, shot Pyrodex P in it, tried power belts, 195 gr, started with 80 grains of powder and it shot 6 inches right @ 50 yards, when i upped the powder it just moved further and further right, at 90 grains it was so far off the paper we couldn't see how far.

The rear sight had already been moved a bit, dont know how much more travel it has left and the front sight is not able to be moved at all

Any help is greatly appreciated

Different projectiles?  Replace the sight?

Also I am not an internationally known sharp shooter or anything, but i can shoot just fine,  21 years in Military, i have taught many people to shoot Military arms, but am novice with BP and could really use some help on straightening this rifle out.

Thanks for any input

v/r
Dave

[Scota4570]

Move the rear sight to the left and the front sigh to the right. 

Carefull with the Pyrodex P, that is more like 3F black.  It is fast burining for the rifle.  Just don't shoot heavy charges.

[dwr435]

The front sight cant be moved and the rear sight has already been moved a bunch, not sure how much more adjustment i can get out of it

All the documents i can find suggest that you use P or pistol powder for rifles .45 and under.  Even in the loading documents that came with the Power Belts, is this wrong information?  My Dad has regular BP but i was just doing what the paper says, i'll run what ever is best for the rifle.

Thanks for the reply

[Scota4570]

The front sight is normally dovetailed into the barrel.  Drift it using a brass or aluminum punch and a hammer. 

[hammer]

Reduce the charge.   
Barrels will whip when fired.  'Barrel Harmonics'.     In your barrel 80 grains of Pyrodex P seems to be throwing the ball to the right.    More powder, further right.    Either drop the charge or, preferably, change to a cooler BP or Pyrodex R.
Good luck.

[dwr435]

The front sight is not moveable in any way.  The rear is dovetailed but already pushed pretty far and i couldn't get it to budge with what i had on hand, but will try to move it tomorrow but I doubt i will get much more adjustment out of it.

[dwr435]

Thank you, i will try some other powders, afraid much less powder wont push the power belts enough to take game ethically.  Have a great day.

[axelp]

I am not familiar with pyrodex, or powerbelts (non-traditional powder and projectile)

BUT with regular old black powder, (FFF) you can go way down to 60 grains with a .440 patched roundball, and have enough kill power for deer at reasonable ranges I would think.

With the fast twist barrel? I am guessing you might even have to reduce your powder even more for best accuracy---that is with a tightly patched roundball. I can't help much with pyro or belts...

You might want to share a photo of what that front sight looks like.

[draken]

Just guessing here, but there are a couple of other possibilities; Prior to you acquiring the gun the barrel or muzzle might possibly have been damaged in some way, or there could be bore runout in the barrel.  

[dwr435]

I thought that round ball was not very accurate out of the faster twist barrels?  I would rather shoot round ball just went with the modern(more expensive) stuff because of what i read on the twist rates.  

If round ball will shoot out of that fast a twist, are there any variables i can modify to  make it shoot better, IE use this type of patch, or go with a ball that is under sized slightly with this patch and that lube and it should help, etc

Once i get some round ball i will experiment and see what it likes.

I will try and post a pic of the sight, but for now, it is brass, sticks up from inside the barrel, not in a dovetail so it cant move side to side.


This was my grandfathers and has sit in a safe untouched for probably close to 20 years, besides being moved from his house in Alabama to my Dads in NY and then from NY to NC almost 10 years ago.  Could have been damaged in the moves, or it could have been damaged when he put it up but he didn't say anything thinking he would fix it and never got around to it.

I don't have the skill to figure out if it has been damaged though. 

Thanks for all the info

[Daryl]

Pistol twists in rifle barrels will shoot pistol charges just fine.  Drop the charge to 25 to 30 or maybe 35gr. or even 40 max of 3F GOEX REAL BP - sprinkle the Pyrodex onto the garden - it may make a decent fertilizer.  It is horrid as a propellant. in my HUMBLE opinion, of course - well, maybe not humble.

[Ky-Flinter]

Dave,

Please don't take offense, but I have to ask.  Are you moving the rear sight to the left?  This is from the perspective of standing behind the butt plate looking toward the muzzle.

Have I ever drifted a sight the wrong direction?  Nooooo, never

-Ron

[dwr435]

No offense at all, i didn't drift it at all because i didn't have the proper tools at the range.  But will try later today thanks.

[axelp]

You just have to try different things. In muzzleloading, there are so many variables and so many options to make those variables achieve the accuracy you need.

You have to be systematic in your approach. Change one thing at a time and be as consistant as possible in your process. Its a marathon, not a sprint---no, its an "iditarod," not a sprint.

If I were me, I'd get some FFF black powder and if you have access to some roundball try some reduced loads. Keep it simple. A tight/snug patch is key in my opinion. Once you get the gun to grouping on paper (not perfect but just giving you a recognizable group somewhere on the paper, then you can dial her in for accuracy and of course a hunting type load can then be developed as well.

Its a rather long process---but that is part of the fun of it. be patient and have fun never give up, never surrender.

[Hungry Horse]

 A local guy bought a fast twist barreled rifle at an estate sale, not knowing it was fast twist. He took it to the range and played with several light charges, and found it was deadly at a hundred yards or less with a charge of forty grains of 3F. He shot it at a Sargent York shoot I used to attend, which is shot at sixty yards. That fast twist shot a round ball just fine with light charges.
 Forget Pyrodex, it will cause problems no end, and will not perform as well as black powder, IMO.

    Hungry Horse

[rich pierce]

Could replace rear sight and cut notch off center if drifting it does not seem sufficient. Cob job but could put it in the black

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I'm interested in how you determined the twist.  Will you describe your method please.

Advice about Pyrodex here is spot on...get rid of it!  Find some 3Fg black powder and some .440" or .445" round balls.  I have no idea what a 'Power Belt' is.  And from what I can see in your thread, what you are reading is bad information as well.  But let's start at the beginning...how did you determine the twist?

[dwr435]

I put a large patch on a cleaning rod so it would be tight, marked the rod where it was on lined up with the sight to judge rotation and marked it at the muzzle to judge travel.  Then i worked the rod out gently to allow it to rotate as freely as possible as it came out.  When it made a half turn i measured the travel, and then when it did a full turn i measured it again.  Did this 3 times.  12", 24" first time, 11 1/4" , 24", second time, 12", 24" third time. 

While this may not hold up in a court of law, but i figured it was close enough for my needs.

If this is not even close to accurate please let me know.

Have a great day.

[WadePatton]

I put a large patch on a cleaning rod so it would be tight, marked the rod where it was on lined up with the sight to judge rotation and marked it at the muzzle to judge travel.  Then i worked the rod out gently to allow it to rotate as freely as possible as it came out.  When it made a half turn i measured the travel, and then when it did a full turn i measured it again.  Did this 3 times.  12", 24" first time, 11 1/4" , 24", second time, 12", 24" third time. 

While this may not hold up in a court of law, but i figured it was close enough for my needs.

If this is not even close to accurate please let me know.

Have a great day.

That's perfectly adequate for our needs. If Daryl says pistol twist in a rifle will shoot, that's good enough for me. Now we gots to get to shooting it. I agree with the others on most all at this point, get some roundballs and BP we'll get the party started! 

Getting the ball/patch combo good and snug and proper is our first order of bidness.  Don't buy any thin patches either.  They need to be thick and natural-like denim, but not the stretchy kind. (includes synthetics that melt) 

If you're going to load as Daryl, Taylor, myself and many others do (such that wiping between shots is eliminated) then you'll also need a ball starter* and a smooth crown.  Feel free to load more loosely, but it won't be good for accuracy/consistency and you'll need to wipe your bbl every few or several shots. 

A ball starter helps you initiate the swaging process that occurs when starting a good snug patch ball combination into the bore.  The stub lets you push the ball just under flush-for trimming your patch at the muzzle (best symmetry) and the 6 or 9" shaft allows you to START the ball further into the bbl.  Then send it home with your regular loading rod.

Patch lube--whatever you like, but spit works for getting going.  WET the patch, patch thick is what to remember. And that you'll need to re-develop your load if you change lubes, patches, or balls. 



Powder First.



*These are also called "short starters" by many, but also "short starting" is how bbls are blown.  So I prefer to keep the term "short start" out of my vocabulary and thus my mental processes.  Ball Starter! 

Hey and the bbl may indeed be bent.  That only means it needs to be straightened.  We can do that.

[dwr435]

Thanks to all for the info.  I will order some, patch, ball, and get some BP from my Dad and give it a go.  Will update once i can get back out to the range.

[Bluesmoke]

With a barrel twist of 1 turn in 24" theres no way its designed for a round ball gun. A round ball would need 1 in 60" or there abouts.

If you already have round balls ,a reduction in powder charge might help, stranger things have happened.

If you are  ex military you will understand site movement.

Front opposite (yes I understand its immovable)
Rear same -
as you want the round to move to.

With the possibliity of a bent barrel check the tabs of the barrel are not spot welded. I saw one Spanish  gun that had the spot welding boogered up and the extra heat input  threw the barrel out of straight.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

dwr:  yes you have the rate of twist thing figured.  What I do is run a tight patch down the barrel all the way to the plug.  I then take a strip of masking tape and wrap it around the rod at the muzzle with the tags of the tap sticking together and straight up.  I cut those off about 1" above the rod.  then I carefully withdraw the rod watching the tape until it makes either 1/4 revolution, or 1/2, depending on the length of the barrel.  If I've pulled it out with a half revolution, I mark the rod at the muzzle, measure the distance between the tape and the new mark, and multiply by two.  There's your rate of twist.

I agree that 24" twist is not for ball, unless it's a pistol barrel.  Your barrel may be designed to shoot a bullet - cylindrical conoidal projectile.

[bones92]

dwr435,

Out of curiosity, what other maker marks are on your rifle barrel?  Does your stock have a brass joiner halfway down the forearm, where the forearm steps down in contour?  And perhaps a small brass patchbox?

I have a few of these 70's/80's era .45 caliber Italian rifles.  A couple are marked with PR (with the letters overlapped) as the maker.  I've never measured the twist in them, but I may do so.

What is the date code on the barrel?   Might be Roman numerals (i.e. XX, or XX9, or perhaps two letters...)

[dwr435]

It says FIE, has the P R or R R overlapping but is not marked well.  Your description seems accurate.

Has three stamps on the other side of the barrel from the PR stamp, one is unintelligible but possible a shield with some letters, the other is PN with a dot or sun over it, and the last is AC or AG with a box around it.

  Pretty sure it was a combination of charge and the sights being off that is the problem, cant drift it any, will try different charges once i can go back to the range.

[bones92]

AC is the code for 1977 (there is no AG date code for Italian BP arms).

PN is the black powder proof (Pulvo Negro being Italian for black powder).

For the rest of the forum... the front sight blades on these are not adjustable for windage, but the rear sight can be tapped left or right with a brass punch.

However, I agree that you might try 45 or 50 grains of real BP before you mess with the sights.  Even 45 gr of Pyrodex might improve somewhat.  Does the mouth of the crown (muzzle) look uniform around the perimeter?