Author Topic: Original Bucks County rifle  (Read 15403 times)


Offline Curtis

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2016, 06:00:27 AM »
Wow, nice rifle!
Curtis Allinson
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2016, 04:06:04 PM »
 Wonderful rifle, the carving example is neatly done and the Pix are Great.

   Thanks, Tim C.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 04:10:50 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2016, 04:54:34 PM »
Let I guess I'll be the voice of dissent.  There is quite a bit about this piece that seriously rubs me the wrong way.  I think I'll leave it at that, other than to say there is no way I would ever bid on that without seeing it 'in hand' first.
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Offline crankshaft

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2016, 07:13:39 PM »
 Could you expand on that ? ?

thanks,

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2016, 07:22:48 PM »
In the spirit of education, could someone share what might be wrong with this.  I don't know Buck's county very well, but saw several at
KRA this year.  Nothing is jumping out at me.  Private message in strictest confidence would be fine.
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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2016, 03:04:18 AM »
I'm no expert but a couple things perk my interest. Not in a good way. But without a hands on hard to say. Erick enlighten us.

Offline JTR

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2016, 03:34:51 AM »
Eric, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this one as well, and like Shreck, a PM or email would be fine.
Thanks,
John
John Robbins

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2016, 03:58:31 AM »
As I noted, I would definitely want a hands-on to make any concrete conclusions.  I just don't like it on a gut level.  I think it has been heavily worked over; I do believe it's an original old gun (initially), but my first impression is that it began life as a much plainer rifle.  That pretty much sums it up, read into that what one may!  I think the wear plate in particular looks ridiculous.

Let me repeat, just my gut feeling based upon what I see in the photos.  Maybe I would feel differently if I examined it in person and I would strongly encourage anyone else to do the same - as I would with ANY auction piece.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 06:35:51 PM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2016, 05:57:53 PM »
I don't know very much at all about Bucks County rifles, but my immediate impression, based on what I've seen of original rifles and smoothbores, is that much of the carving does not display the wear [ edges etc]  which is evident in the surrounding wood. The carving looks in better shape than the rest of the stock.  Other things too, but I would want to see it in person.
So, for me it's an overall "look" rather than a style based opinion.

Offline Buck

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2016, 05:37:59 AM »
Slightly shady.

Buck.


Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2016, 02:47:48 PM »
Probably something Kettenburg built and he's just too shy to fess up to it...... ;)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 03:22:43 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2016, 03:20:03 PM »
Probably something Kettenburg built and he's just to shy to fess up to it...... ;)

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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2016, 04:26:15 PM »
 ;)

Of course I would have signed it by Albrecht…..
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Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2016, 07:31:42 PM »
I'm in agreement with Eric on this one as well.  Perhaps discretion is the better part of valor, but I don't mind saying this much: My feeling is that it has been refinished through and through, from wood to iron to brass.  It doesn't sit well with me, and I'd want to handle it before saying anything more about what may be authentic or not.  Mostly to my eye the engraving on everything but the nosecap, thimbles, and lockplate is too crisp, doesn't match with the wear, dings, and dents on the rest of the gun. 

As an aside, it couldn't possibly be a Kettenburg, he does better work than this  ;D

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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2016, 07:49:44 PM »
 Shows what I know. TC

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2016, 10:53:45 PM »
;)

Of course I would have signed it by Albrecht…..
Of course.  And so it could only be read in "certain" lighting..... ;)

BTW, there are all sorts of guns I have doubts about, these things have been fiddled with for a long time now.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 10:55:31 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline Clowdis

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2016, 06:19:32 PM »
Does the asking price of $6500 reflect a rifle in pristine original condition or one that has been heavily restored? Showing my ignorance of pricing here, but seems like it's a little on the low side for an untouched original.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2016, 06:54:32 PM »
The starting price is likely to be beat by quite a bit.  Just my guess.  A well-appointed original Bucks County rifle is a rare bird.  Where and when are collectors going to see another?  If it was signed Verner or  Weiker or Schuler, it would start quite a bit higher.

Ideas about restoration have changed and continue to change.  From what I can see, 60 and 50 years ago, it was considered almost a duty to restore a nice longrifle to its original appearance.  When I first started going to flintlock shows in the 70s, originals were almost always always shined up.  Nobody proudly showed a gun in the state in which it was found, often with the forearm missing and converted to halfstock when converted to percussion.  Those guns were for selling to someone who wanted to restore one. Those guns in "relic" condition were considered projects.  How many of the longrifles in Kindig's Golden Age book were shown as found?  Any?

However, nowadays it is fashionable to want to see guns as found.  Sort of.  Collectors and enthusiasts still want to see guns as found but dream of those found complete and never altered from their original appearance.  Those are rare indeed among early and Golden Age guns.  Much is made of attic condition but a worm eaten rust bucket isn't going to bring much.

Many longrifles have changed hands many times since found.  So it is not often possible to know what was done in restoration and when.  Careful examination can reveal some things, but it sort of takes a restorer to see everything.  Some things are more obvious and could affect the value to some folks.  Others would be happy to have an original Bucks County longrifle for what may be a good price for this climate.



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Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2016, 12:15:20 AM »
I've had the fortune of handling many original guns in recent years and the vast majority of them had some level of restoration or refinishing at some point or another, especially guns from the flintlock era. Percussion guns and those made into the mid-19th century seem to be messed with far less. Some of the guns showed signs of having been converted back to flintlock in their period of use within a single family and were documented as such including images in books published at the beginning of the 20th century. Others were clearly restored more recently. Few that I have seen seemed to be restored with the intention of tricking others, but some were certainly done so carefully that trickery could have occurred at some point.
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L Moler

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2016, 05:19:09 AM »
Does anyone make a lock like the one on that rifle.. 
Looks to be a larger lock than most made these days..
The reason I ask is,   I might just build a copy of that rifle. :)

L Moler

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2016, 04:24:51 AM »
Never Mind....
Took another closer look at the lock..  It would never work on that rifle.  The bottom of the pan us up on the top of the side flat..  The touch hole would have to be in the quartering flat.

Still like the overall looks of the rifle.

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2016, 04:59:17 PM »
Ah the flaws of camera angle and misinterpretation of data caused by it.

Offline Bill Paton

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2016, 06:01:03 PM »
The Bucks County rifle stocker, the lock size, and Don Stith were all correct. It was the camera angle and observer that were wrong.

Bill Paton
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 06:12:18 PM by Bill Paton »
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L Moler

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Re: Original Bucks County rifle
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2016, 06:42:54 AM »
If you say so.