Author Topic: Making a main spring, question.  (Read 12906 times)

BartSr

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Making a main spring, question.
« on: October 05, 2016, 06:46:42 AM »
In making the mainspring (flinter) do I make it straight then fold it OR do I make it already folded?  ???
I have spring steel stock big enough to do it either way.

Thanks for the kind answers.

BartSr

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2016, 01:43:12 PM »
In making the mainspring (flinter) do I make it straight then fold it OR do I make it already folded?  ???
I have spring steel stock big enough to do it either way.

Thanks for the kind answers.

BartSr


I make my mainsprings from flat strips of 1/8" 1075. I am not sure what "already folded" means
in making a "V"spring of any kind.

Bob Roller

Offline smart dog

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2016, 02:05:36 PM »
Hi Bart,
You have to start with flat stock as Bob described.  It is much harder to work on the spring surfaces after it is folded.  Also your stock should be about 1/8" wider than you intend so you have excess to make the little stud that fits into the hole on the lock plate.

dave
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2016, 03:09:35 PM »
Hi Bart,
You have to start with flat stock as Bob described.  It is much harder to work on the spring surfaces after it is folded.  Also your stock should be about 1/8" wider than you intend so you have excess to make the little stud that fits into the hole on the lock plate.

dave

I start with a flat piece of 1075 that is 5/8" wide and usually 4 and 3/4" long.
This is painted with blue dye and a 3/8" wide line is scribed the length of the
piece.I locate a bend point and the stud that goes thru the lock plate and then
it's cut on a bandsaw to the approximate shape and the squared away on a milling
machine.The slot for the stirrup/link is then cut. The blank is then fasted to a
dedicated sine bar that is used only for this one job.The taper for the lower limb
of the spring is then milled with a new or sharp 4 flute end mill.I haven't filed
a taper into a spring for many years and have no romanticized ideas about that
much filing on such a simple task.

Bob Roller

Offline bones92

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2016, 04:05:39 PM »
Ok, this is a bit of novice question, but I've wondered about this before.

Why doesn't anyone  make a two-piece mainspring, joined together where the V on a one-piece spring would be?   My impression is that springs usually break at the V, and having a two-piece mainspring would alleviate this, for the most part.

The two pieces could be flared out a bit to allow for a small hole to be drilled for a connecting nut & bolt.  Or perhaps a small C-shaped piece could hold the two pieces tightly together, with a drop of solder to keep them put.

If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2016, 04:20:21 PM »
Hi,
In my experience, I've never had a spring break at the bend.  They broke on the lower leaf below the bend, sometimes half way to the hook.  Once you know how to do it, making a "V" spring is easy and fast and a 2-piece spring would not save me any time or effort.  Moreover, once I got the tempering process right, I've never had a spring break when made from 1075 steel.

dave
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 04:22:40 PM by smart dog »
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westbj2

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2016, 04:28:00 PM »
" The blank is then fasted to a dedicated sine bar that is used only for this one job.The taper for the lower limb
of the spring is then milled with a new or sharp 4 flute end mill"

Bob,  above are you shaping the lower limb taper on the width or thickness dimension?  

Jim


BartSr

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2016, 07:10:42 PM »
OK thanks folks.
It is as I thought, flat strip then bent.
Probably bent under read heat but not bent cold, eh?

Will do as you are teaching me.

BartSr

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2016, 07:18:39 PM »
" The blank is then fasted to a dedicated sine bar that is used only for this one job.The taper for the lower limb
of the spring is then milled with a new or sharp 4 flute end mill"

Bob,  above are you shaping the lower limb taper on the width or thickness dimension?  

Jim



Jim,
This establishes the thickness only. The width is about 11/32 all the way with no end to end taper.

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2016, 07:24:50 PM »
OK thanks folks.
It is as I thought, flat strip then bent.
Probably bent under read heat but not bent cold, eh?

Will do as you are teaching me.

BartSr


That's right. Under red heat after the lower limb is tapered and the claw is
established for the link IF it's that kind of a spring.After the spring is folded
and forged then the stud for the lockplate can be shaped.I file the to near
dimension (#44 drill) and then clean it up with a hollow mill which I make as
needed.

Bob Roller

westbj2

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2016, 07:29:16 PM »
Bart,
If you are using 1075 or 1095 ALL bending and shaping must be done under distinct red heat.  Also, when you establish the correct shape and the blank is cool you must re-heat to red again and hold the temp for a minute or so then allow the piece to cool again at room temperature.  This latter procedure normalizes the piece from the stresses of initial bending.

Jim

BartSr

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2016, 07:34:42 PM »
ONe more Q:
The position of the spring's pin (through the lock plate) how critical is this position?

At the bend, above the bend, etc?

BartSr

Offline little joe

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2016, 07:36:59 PM »
In making the mainspring (flinter) do I make it straight then fold it OR do I make it already folded?  ???
I have spring steel stock big enough to do it either way.

Thanks for the kind answers.

BartSr

I have never used anything other than hacksaw, files and torch to heat treat it. I do the claw first and the bend later. I have one I did 35 yrs. ago and still in use.

Offline davec2

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2016, 07:37:37 PM »
Bob,

How do you shape the little hook / claw on the tumbler end of the spring ?
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2016, 08:06:05 PM »
Bob,

How do you shape the little hook / claw on the tumbler end of the spring ?

There is material left after tapering the lower limb. It's the area where the front of the spring is clamped.
I draw file the mill marks off and then I notch that area with a 3 cornered file and using a modified 1/8" diameter
chain saw file I cut the half round radii across where the lugs on the link rest.I then file the contour of the claw.

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2016, 08:11:06 PM »
ONe more Q:
The position of the spring's pin (through the lock plate) how critical is this position?

At the bend, above the bend, etc?

BartSr


I usually try to stay about 3/8"BEHIND the bend.

Bob Roller

Photo of stages of making a spring

« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 02:57:14 AM by Dennis Glazener »

Offline FDR

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2016, 11:10:20 PM »
If someone would add a few pictures or drawings this would make a great tutorial!

Fred

BartSr

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2016, 02:35:47 AM »
If someone would add a few pictures or drawings this would make a great tutorial!

Fred
I agree.  Pictures will help me too.  ;D

I have started hacksawing the main spring strip, it may take a while.  :-[
I will be investigating getting a metal cutting blade for my bandsaw.

BartSr

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2016, 03:03:42 AM »
If someone would add a few pictures or drawings this would make a great tutorial!

Fred
I agree.  Pictures will help me too.  ;D

I have started hacksawing the main spring strip, it may take a while.  :-[
I will be investigating getting a metal cutting blade for my bandsaw.

BartSr

Bandsaws operate at FEET PER MINUTE. If you try to use a metal cutting blade on a saw made for a wood shop it will self destruct.
My bandsaw has a 4 speed reducer transmission and I run it at 160 feet per minute. I use this on 0-1 flat ground steel as well.

Bob Roller


BartSr

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2016, 03:07:31 AM »
If someone would add a few pictures or drawings this would make a great tutorial!

Fred
I agree.  Pictures will help me too.  ;D

I have started hacksawing the main spring strip, it may take a while.  :-[
I will be investigating getting a metal cutting blade for my bandsaw.

BartSr

Bandsaws operate at FEET PER MINUTE. If you try to use a metal cutting blade on a saw made for a wood shop it will self destruct.
My bandsaw has a 4 speed reducer transmission and I run it at 160 feet per minute. I use this on 0-1 flat ground steel as well.

Bob Roller

OK, I remember now.  I know someone who has a metal cutting bandsaw.

BartSr

Offline Dave B

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2016, 06:01:44 AM »
Bones, Your question regarding a two leaf spring joined by bolt, rivet or C shape soldered in place is not practical. you have multiplied your work. Most lock makers in the day were very quick at doing things. it is far easier to take one piece do the work of shaping bend it clean it up heat treat and done. The workman like process gets money in the smiths pocket. Extra steps is not something most would chose to do.  It is an interesting question though. I wonder if the power of the spring would be less given they are not one piece. For those of you that have not seen the movie The Gunsmith of Williamsburg you are missing out on a great summary of the making of a rifle from scratch. The forging of the main spring is shown. Cool stuff.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2016, 06:11:10 AM »
 for a flintlock spring the first thing I do is forge the hook on the end. Then make the bend. To make sure the bend is where I want it I file a notch in the side of the bar about 1/8" deep  were I want the bend. The notch is on the same side as the stud that goes through the plate. Then I determine where the stud will be and saw 2 slots. 1 on each side of the stud. then I cut it out and file from there. When I bend it I don't forge it tight together but put a piece of metal between the two leaves so that the bend has about 1/32 of an inch showing between the 2 leaves.
 Actually the bend is one where some of the least stress is. When springs break at the bend it is usually because of the way they were forged or hardened the wrong way.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2016, 06:32:11 AM »
for a flintlock spring the first thing I do is forge the hook on the end. Then make the bend. To make sure the bend is where I want it I file a notch in the side of the bar about 1/8" deep  were I want the bend. The notch is on the same side as the stud that goes through the plate. Then I determine where the stud will be and saw 2 slots. 1 on each side of the stud. then I cut it out and file from there. When I bend it I don't forge it tight together but put a piece of metal between the two leaves so that the bend has about 1/32 of an inch showing between the 2 leaves.
 Actually the bend is one where some of the least stress is. When springs break at the bend it is usually because of the way they were forged or hardened the wrong way.

This method describes the way I made this type of spring. I abandoned these mechanisms
in favor of the claw and link (stirrup)in 1970 and have made only one since then.

Bob Roller

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2016, 08:31:00 PM »
The OP was referring to a 'FLINT MAINSPRING".  I consider that type to have a big curving hook rather than the claw type Mr. Roller is famous for.  And I agree that the hook must be forged first on this type of spring.
For a flint mainspring, I like to start with material that is a little thicker than the finished spring will end up.  When you make the bend, the forging process will diminish the thickness of the metal on each side of the bend.  Also, on mainsprings from period pieces, I noticed that there is double the thickness of the leaves in the bend itself.  Otherwise, the spring works too much through the bend and not in the leaves.  So starting out with stock that is too thick will leave you with metal to dress down to the desired dimensions.
Further, it is my understanding that the hardening and tempering process which makes a spring work, aligns the molecules of the steel parallel to the leaves and the edges of the bend, like the pages in a book being bent around double.  Otherwise, the molecules when just harde3ned and prior to tempering, are like sand with no structure that would lend itself to being bent - like a piece of glass.
I'd love to hear from a metallurgist who actually knows what he is talking about, rather than relying on memory from my youth.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Joe S

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Re: Making a main spring, question.
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2016, 09:09:00 PM »
Simplified V - Springs - A Guncraftmanship Manual Pamphlet by Kit Ravenshear

You can get it on Amazon or from TOW.  It will tell you everything you need to know.