RUSTY / LEAD FOULED BORE

[voyageur1688]

 An old rendezvouser up here had lead fowling in his 50 Hawken and proceded to remove it as well as some minor rust in a way I had not been willing to try. He used a brush to get what he could out the got a ball and patch that he saturated with valve lapping compound from an auto parts store, put in the powder, shoved the ball & patch home, and shot it.. 3 shots later it was clean, but I am not sure what it will do to the bore. Wouldn't this ruin it if it is done too many times?
 Todd

[hanshi]

Centerfire rifle shooters sometimes do this; it's called "fire lapping" and does smooth out the barrel. 

[Daryl]

That's the first I've heard of firelapping a muzzleloader.  Must have used a normal .010" patch and a big .490" ball.  I"ve firelapped a lot fo modern-type guns, and an 1871 Mauser that was more pitted than an old iron water main. It works wonders the the Mauser and generally excellent results with every other rifle I've I'd done. One must be careful with speed and bullet alloy so one doesn't merely enlarge the throat, uless that's what is desired - rarely.
Voyageur,  - you have to know when to stop.  Kinda like putting salt and pepper on eggs - a bit is great, but cover them white and then black and they're not fit to eat.

[Dphariss]

An old rendezvouser up here had lead fowling in his 50 Hawken and proceded to remove it as well as some minor rust in a way I had not been willing to try. He used a brush to get what he could out the got a ball and patch that he saturated with valve lapping compound from an auto parts store, put in the powder, shoved the ball & patch home, and shot it.. 3 shots later it was clean, but I am not sure what it will do to the bore. Wouldn't this ruin it if it is done too many times?
 Todd

Steel wool and a patch on a jag will usually pull lead.
This type fire lapping will likely work but valve lapping compound is a little coarse for me.
In breech loaders fire lapping is best done with a minimal powder charge. To much pressure can result in "too much" syndrome, or so I am told.
Using it more than a few shots is not a good idea.
Dan

[long carabine]

Daryl, If I am not mistaken enlarging the throat will throw off the head space and that is a dangerous situation in a centerfire rifle or pistol. The things that some odd people do always is not safe, valve lapping compound to clean a bore.....I think not. There are other ways to do it such as steel wool or a green scrubby or how about buying a new barrel.

[davec2]

Brownells sells a fire lapping kit with the appropriate type and grits of abrasive paste for cleaning up an old barrel.  I have used the kit with excellent results.

Dave C

[T*O*F]

An old rendezvouser up here had lead fowling in his 50 Hawken

I will ask the obvious question:
Old rendezvouser= primitive
primitive= patch roundball only

Where did the lead fouling come from?

[Roger Fisher]

An old rendezvouser up here had lead fowling in his 50 Hawken

I will ask the obvious question:
Old rendezvouser= primitive
primitive= patch roundball only

Where did the lead fouling come from?

I'd vote for the ol guy sneaking in maxiballs in a r ball match

[Leatherbelly]

 Just a thought, maybe a lighter abrasive such as J-B bore cleaner and a fireform? Light load, 2 or three  times,scrub her out real good with cotton? jat.

[J.D.]

I fire lapped a barrel with a slightly rough bore by using 320 grit lapping compound embedded in a few maxie slugs. I would hesitate to fire lap a barrel using a patched ball, since the patch probably doesn't completely conform to the lands and grooves.

Very light loads are required for fire lapping, as is completely cleaning the bore between shots. That said, IMHO, debreeching and lead lapping is faster and easier, even with a slightly rough bore.

[Acer Saccharum]

Leading can occur in a rusty and pitted bore. The patch catches and tears, exposing the bore to direct contact with the lead.

Also a sharp muzzle,which tears the patch, will allow lead/bore intercourse.

[Daryl]

Long Car. spot-on- enlarging the throat is normally to be avoided.

Acer's post might be correct if the fellow wasn't shooting Maxi's. Another way to get leading shooting round balls, is to use too thin a patch. The gasses blowing by cut the patch off the ball, and melt the surface lead into a spray, which can coat the bore. The ball then passes over and irons this into the rifling. This is only speculation as this gas-cutting of the ball/bullet is how modern cast bullet shooters lead the bore.  In a ML, it's probably due to shooting undersized lead bullets - it: Maxi's or R.E.A.L.'s. Before the bullet can expand and seal, some is meted and blown off the bullet. The bullet then rides over it and irons it into the rifling. Pretty simple. Oversized bullets or oversized patched round balls with compression into the grooves don't lead. Bullets like this can't be loaded without a false muzzle - patched round balls only need a 3/8" hickory rod.

[hanshi]

This, Daryl, is the reason I highly recommend and always use an over powder  wad of some sort.  Ive tried wasp nest, a dry patch & many others and all worked well.  I finally settled on wads of toilet paper (cheap & plentiful) for practice and lubed felt wads (like those used in revolvers) for hunting.  Wads really do protect lubed patches and the ball. 

[voyageur1688]

 The way he ended up with the lead fouling was to lend it to his son in-law for a hunting trip. The son in-law had it for several months and god only knows how many or what he shot out of it. Needles to say 2 Fingers was not too happy when he got it back. I think he wanted to get it cleaned up fast to use on Jake for what he had done to it. Last time I saw Jake he was hiding behind a van at the park when he saw 2 Fingers pull into the parking lot to take his dog for a walk.
 I think I will stick with the suggestions from here.
 Todd

[longcruise]

He used a brush to get what he could out the got a ball and patch that he saturated with valve lapping compound from an auto parts store, put in the powder, shoved the ball & patch home, and shot it.. 3 shots later it was clean, but I am not sure what it will do to the bore. Wouldn't this ruin it if it is done too many times?

I have firelapped about 5 modern handguns, about 12 modern rifles and about 8 muzzleloaders.  I never lapped any valves so I don't know what grit it is but I'd avoid it personally.  The coarsest compound I use is 220 grit and of course it is conssitent.  there is no oversize grit mixed in.

I firelapped one ml gun with lap compound wiped on the patch and loaded with an rb.  It does smooth out the lands and the edges of the lands but for the most part does not touch the bottoms of the grooves.  If he had lead in the bottoms of the grooves, I'd bet it is still there.

Firelapping may remove lead but I'm not sure how you even know if you have leading in an ml barrel or if you do how do you know when it is removed by firelapping.  One would need at least a good borescope or to remove the breechplug to see it.

One thing that will remove lead if it's there is the Outers Foul Out or the similar home made model.

[Daryl]

This, Daryl, is the reason I highly recommend and always use an over powder  wad of some sort.  Ive tried wasp nest, a dry patch & many others and all worked well.  I finally settled on wads of toilet paper (cheap & plentiful) for practice and lubed felt wads (like those used in revolvers) for hunting.  Wads really do protect lubed patches and the ball. 

In order not to need a wad between the patched ball and the powder, one needs to use a patch that fills the grooves.

Longcruise - I doubt you'd have fun putting down a .022" denim patch filed with anything heavier than about 800 grit, along with the normal .005" under ball.  Yet, with spit, LHV or Hoppe's Plus, it's easy to load - and no blow by - it fills the grooves.

[keweenaw]

Even on centerfire rifles and revolvers fire lapping won't change the headspace which is determined between the shoulder on a bottleneck case or the case mouth on a straight rimless case and the bolt face.  It might lengthen the throat slightly but if a barrel is rusty or rough enough to need fire lapped a slightly longer throat is not going to be an accuracy issue.

Tom

[Mad Monk]

The way he ended up with the lead fouling was to lend it to his son in-law for a hunting trip. The son in-law had it for several months and god only knows how many or what he shot out of it. Needles to say 2 Fingers was not too happy when he got it back. I think he wanted to get it cleaned up fast to use on Jake for what he had done to it. Last time I saw Jake he was hiding behind a van at the park when he saw 2 Fingers pull into the parking lot to take his dog for a walk.
 I think I will stick with the suggestions from here.
 Todd

This story reminds me of a haf-stock "Hawken" barrel that came to me some years ago.
The guy had loaned the gun to a relative who shot it and then did not clean it for almost a year before it was returned.  Of course the barrel was fouled and rusted.  So the guy worked the rust out with 0000 steel wool and oil.
Then started to shoot it again.  Then noticed that every time he fired the gun he saw smoke come out around the lock and triggers
Pulled the barrel and found two tiny holes in the bottom of the patent breech plug.
And this was with bp, NOT Pyrodex.

Pits that form in the rear of the barrel or in the patent breech plug can grow rapidly once the gun is put back into service after such rusting.  The pressure created during the firing of the gun is concentrated at the bottom of the "V" shaped pits which causes the pits to grow in size and depth.  Guns treated in such a manner may also come apart.  Roger Fisher related just such a tale a few years back.

A badly pitted bore should be inspected to see if it is worth saving.

E. Ogre

[hanshi]

This, Daryl, is the reason I highly recommend and always use an over powder  wad of some sort.  Ive tried wasp nest, a dry patch & many others and all worked well.  I finally settled on wads of toilet paper (cheap & plentiful) for practice and lubed felt wads (like those used in revolvers) for hunting.  Wads really do protect lubed patches and the ball. 

In order not to need a wad between the patched ball and the powder, one needs to use a patch that fills the grooves.

Longcruise - I doubt you'd have fun putting down a .022" denim patch filed with anything heavier than about 800 grit, along with the normal .005" under ball.  Yet, with spit, LHV or Hoppe's Plus, it's easy to load - and no blow by - it fills the grooves.

I actually rarely have problems with patch burn-through.  If I do it's usually traceable to the patch being torn during loading.  The primary reason I use wadding is to avoid powder contamination from the lube.  A side effect of this is a very slight increase in velocity (insignificant) and somewhat more uniform velocities.

[Daryl]

You're right, Flinter - most burns are started by cutting the patch at the muzzle.  I like to crown a barrel, then pick up a strip of .025" denim (12 oz.), lube a section with LHV or spit, then seat a .005" under ball into the muzzle & down 1/2" or so and pull it back out with the flaps of cloth.  If the patch has no tears, I know my normal thinner, .0215"(10 oz) will work just fine. This 10oz. measures .003 to .004" thicker with calipers. The 12 oz., tight combo leaves the ball very heavily engraved by the grooves, with slight elongation of the ball as well.  The thin stuff leaves prominent weave marks on the ball from the grooves which is perfect!  When chronographing, I've not achieve higher velocities when using a wad, but have used a wad when hunting.  I have noticed some don't care if a wad is used and some barrels decrease accuracy with a wad other than a 'spare' cut patch as the protecting wad.

[longcruise]

Longcruise - I doubt you'd have fun putting down a .022" denim patch filed with anything heavier than about 800 grit, along with the normal .005" under ball.  Yet, with spit, LHV or Hoppe's Plus, it's easy to load - and no blow by - it fills the grooves.

Well, my references to using patches coated with lap compund to lap with round balls was limited to one effort.  My first firelapping experiences were with .44 mag handguns using Veral Smith's lap compound.  After having successfully lapping several wheel l guns I asked him about using his compound to lap an ml by coating the patch with his compound.  His response was "well, you could try it".   And, I did, with the results reiterated in my first post.  The results were pretty much unsatisfactory because the compound in the patch did not do the job on the bottoms of the grooves.

Subsequently I lapped that same rifle and several others using  conical slugs rolled in lap compound per the instructions of the manufacturer (LBT and Wheeler).  All of these have yielded excellent results.  I found after working with three Lyman GPRs and several traditions rifles that using a conical with a hollow base cast from pure lead gave the results I was after.  The spanish and Italian barrels smoothed up nicely after 10 or 12 lap slugs.  A Green montain barrel requires 20 or 25 slugs.  Just for the sake of comparison and scale, a Ruger Stainless Super Blackhawk required 40 lap bullets.

I don't know if a modern rifle chamber can be damaged in the throat by firelapping.  In my first efforts with the LBT kit, Veral adivised lead slugs of about 12 BHN fired at very low velocity (as in you can dang near see them fly down range).  The Wheeler kit says to load up your bullets, be they jacketed or lead, and fire them at full velocity.  I have never done that and have used the Wheeler kit as Veral instructed at low velocities and with lead or lead mixtures (wheel Weights) and have not found throats or ml bores to be damaged.

The typical Lyman GPR or other Lyman ml and investarms barrels and the Traditions barrels are patch slicers and dicers.  Many new owners shoot them for 300 to 500 shots to get them smoothed out to where they shoot consistently.  Or, they give up and sell them off cause they will not shoot.

When I suggest firelapping these guns to "traditionalists" they retort that they would rather "shoot them in".  That's all well and good if one wishes to spend weeks/months and many pounds of lead and powder just to get to square one.  "Square one" being;  ok, the barrel is normalized and now I can load test and sigtht in.  Load testing and sighting the gun in before the barrel is normalized is just a waste of time cause 100 shots later everything is changed.

[Daryl]

Mike- I'll try that system you used some day - if I ever run across a barrel that needs it.  At this point, my GM .45 shot well right from the start - maybe I was lucky with it. Pulling the plug and looking down it, the grooves and lands are bright and shiny just as if it had been carefully lapped, THEN polished with Flitz or JB - lots of strokes, BUT the corners are sharp and clean of any blemish or imperfection.  It even appears better than my Goodioen barrel - inside. The accuracy is slightly better as well - it was never labeled as a MATCH barrel and cost less than 1/2 as much.

I have a .433" mould which will allow a very heavy patch laden with compound, I'm sure, which will scrub even the grooves - guess I'll hang onto it. I have some WW balls cast from it to try with heavy patches to see if they'll shoot OK.

One other method that could be tried, is to load a small charge of powder, say 20gr., then 2 1/10" tight wads, then another wad with a grease/goop of compound stuck to it's base, so the grinding goop is between the wads, then a patched ball to add inertia to the 'load' to slow down the velocity. The compression between the wads should spread the compound out against the bore and the double wads behind would work to run it against the bore, polishing it.

It's easier to use a tight patch on a jab with compound on the patch, even Flitz, and about 20 to 100 or more strokes up and down will effectively polish most bores.  Flitz is substancially more aggressive than JB compound and will polish nicely.

Now, a .20 or .17 cal RB rifle - for small vermin? Silk for patches, of course - or 600 tpi cotton. What twist?

[Lon Baugh]

Avoid valve lapping compound. It's made up of various sizes of grit. It doesn't leave a very smooth surface. The abrasives sold by Brownell's in differing grits is a MUCH better way to lapp.

Also, I've used a treated cloth, "Lead Wipe Away Cloth" (i think) to remove lead from handgun barrels that were badly leaded. Great stuff! Would probably work on a jag in a ML barrel too.         Lon

[J.D.]

Wipe away does work well to remove any leading. IMHO, the purpose of lapping is to smooth a slightly rough bore, in addition to removing any constrictions in  the bore.

Lapping is not designed to remove lead deposits in a barrel. IMHO, trying to remove lead deposits by lapping will only result in a slightly out of round bore that most likely won't shoot well. 

Remove the lead, then lap. If fire lapping, clean the bore well, remove any possible lead deposits left behind from firing the previous bullet before firing another grit impregnated bullet.

In my limited experience, fire lapping a ML rifle does work to remove slight roughness. When using a hollow base minie, it will also lap in a slight choke, since the the lap will cut more aggressively closer to the breech. I also suspect that using  a bore size minie for fire lapping will probably give a better result than a standard size minie, used for target work or hunting.

Again, in my limited experience, debreeching a ML barrel and casting a lead lap is less time consuming, and provides at least as good results. That said, fire lapping  maybe the best way to lap some of the production guns with patent breeches screwed in under pressure.

Just kinda thinkn'....typn' out loud, so to speak...type.