Author Topic: Coning a barrel (Read 17043 times)

Longknife · « **on:** April 04, 2009, 02:08:29 AM »

Coning a barrel? I have been experimenting with coning tool for some time now and have made some out of bronze. This tool will cone barrels from.32 up to .75--- believe it or don't!!!!!!!! one tool -all calibers!!!! I have them for sale in the "for sale" section...Thanks, Ed

Daryl · « **Reply #1 on:** April 04, 2009, 02:45:14 AM »

Got any pictures, Ed? How long a cone?

Longknife · « **Reply #2 on:** April 04, 2009, 04:47:04 PM »

Daryl, The cone depends upon the depth of the rifling and how much of it you want to remove. It will be much shorter than the "long cone" but a minimim of 1/2 " is necessary to take out .10 rifling. I wresled with calling this tool a "short coning tool" or a "long crowning tool"? But what ever it is called, it WORKS!!!! I coned a .58 cal barrel, .10 rifling till all the rifling was gone and it was approx. .560 deep. I then lubed a .18 pillow ticking patch, and started a .575 pure lead ball with my thumb and pushed it home with a 3/8 ram rod!!!!! Yes. it will work on those big "bore guns", up to .75 cal. you guys are so fond of. There are more pictures in the "for sale" section here on the website. Thanks, Ed

AMartin · « **Reply #3 on:** April 04, 2009, 06:32:57 PM »

After looking at many original rifles and most bore have a slight cone , about 1/2" to 3/4" deep .... just enough to tip the lands back .... enough to start a ball ..... no crown .... just a sight cone .....

Cool McGool !!!
Send me one of these ....... PM on the way !!!

Thanks ..... Allen

Birddog6 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 04, 2009, 07:11:18 PM »

Well, I like the looks of it, I like the idea of it & all of that. And I cone muzzles all the time & in fact over half of the customers have been wanting them coned.

However, if you think you are going to push down a tight ball/patch in a .54 or larger caliber with a 1/2 to3/4" cone in it with a Ramrod ?, I think you are fooling yourself....... You may get the first one down but you are going to play H getting the next 10+ down, Especially when you go past .58 caliber and larger. The larger the bore the more friction & more compression of patch material & lead & it gets Really hard on the big bores, IF you shoot a tight ball/patch combo.

I shoot a .54 hunting most of the time. I like to shoot a .535 ball in it with a .016 patch. Mine is coned 2" and I can't get the ball down with just a RR. It is really snug with a .530 ball down with just the RR. I am going to cone it another inch & see if the .535 ball will go as it is the most accurate in the rifle.

Now a real loose ball/patch combo, yes, I can see where ya could get by with it. And if that is what you normally shoot, fine, I think it will work. But a tight ball/patch combo, from my experience it is not gonna happen easily. You are still gonna need a short starter.

Now if it was a gradual taper like Joe Woods tool is where you have a 2-3" taper, it may do it. But a sharp - 1" taper right at the muzzle... I think you are going to have problems with tight combo's.........

Steve Bookout · « **Reply #5 on:** April 04, 2009, 09:43:46 PM »

Birddog6, I have such a make it yourself tool listed in one of my "how to" books and have performed several tests over the years. The results obtained so far agree with your statement concerning tight combinations. I can load a .530 ball and a .010 patch with the rod only. Any thing over those sizes requires a starter of some fashion in most cases unless the bore is cleaned well between each shot. My chunk gun is coned and requires a .495 ball and a .018 patch for optimum accuracy, but it requires a few blows from a mallet and nylon tampon to get'er started. Cheers, Bookie P.S. Why Bird Dog 6? Call sign perhaps?

Birddog6 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 04, 2009, 10:32:32 PM »

Bookie: I think the tool Longknife made is fabulous & have no doubts in my mind it will work & start a ball, & no doubts it will work on a loose combo. I thought I would mention the tight ball/patch combo because I have had several I had to cone more (deeper) because the guys couldn't eliminate the short starter, which was the original intention.

That being said, Longknife's idea & coning is probably more PC & HC than coning one deep like I do, because back then they didn't shoot tight as H ball/patch combo's for the general use, to the best of my knowledge.

No, not a call sign. I used to keep at least 6 bird dogs all the time & quail/pheasant hunted allot with them & a few people nicknamed me Birddog. When I got the computer, I used that & had 6 of them so used Birddog6.

Keith Lisle

Dphariss · « **Reply #7 on:** April 04, 2009, 11:38:17 PM »

I have a 54 Douglas barrel that I load with a .535 or 530 with a heavy ticking patch, about.020".
I never used a starter and the rifle in not coned.
There really is no reason to deep cone a barrel. I have some coning tools I have made that are nearly identical to the photo but in steel with a removable pilot to match to bore.
But I never cone very deep. On pistols I might reduce the lands by 1/3 or 1/2 depth.
Once the ball/patch is sized to the bore it should slide down easily. If you cannot load a 54 with a 3/8 rod once the ball is started you have a barrel problem, internal finish, or a lube problem. Something is wrong.
Linen patches are much harder to compress than cotton so a .018" Linen patch will load harder than a .020 cotton patch. Very tight fits can reduce the lube where the patch contacts the lands and cause problems.

Gotta run.
Dan

Birddog6 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 05, 2009, 01:18:51 AM »

Quote from: Dphariss on April 04, 2009, 11:38:17 PM

If you cannot load a 54 with a 3/8 rod once the ball is started you have a barrel problem, internal finish, or a lube problem. Something is wrong.

no, I disagree. There is nothing wrong, I just like a tight combo, and the tighter the ball/patch combo, the tighter the group it will shoot.

Why do you think guys are competition are loading with a mallet ? It is definately not because they like loading with mallets, it is because they like the ball/patch combo tight = better & more consistant accuracy.

Longknife · « **Reply #9 on:** April 05, 2009, 06:19:06 PM »

Quote

There really is no reason to deep cone a barrel. I have some coning tools I have made that are nearly identical to the photo but in steel with a removable pilot to match to bore.

This is exactly what I have found, Thanks, Dan

Quote

Why do you think guys are competition are loading with a mallet ? It is definately not because they like loading with mallets, it is because they like the ball/patch combo tight = better & more consistant accuracy.

Bird dog, you are absolutely correct here, if you are target shooting with bore sized ball and loading with a mallet then you realy wouldnt want to cone it any way!!?

There are some pictures in my add of me loading a .575 ball with .018 ticking without the use of a short starter:

Ball?patch-----.611
groove--------.600
Difference-----.011

Thats a SNUG fit in my book!!!!!!?

?. If you need it tighter then HAMMER away!!!

R Meyer · « **Reply #10 on:** April 05, 2009, 06:22:28 PM »

That coning tool looks just like the coning tool the John Getz used to cone a
a barrel for me 10 years ago!

Dphariss · « **Reply #11 on:** April 06, 2009, 02:53:15 AM »

Quote from: Birddog6 on April 05, 2009, 01:18:51 AM

Quote from: Dphariss on April 04, 2009, 11:38:17 PM
If you cannot load a 54 with a 3/8 rod once the ball is started you have a barrel problem, internal finish, or a lube problem. Something is wrong.

no, I disagree. There is nothing wrong, I just like a tight combo, and the tighter the ball/patch combo, the tighter the group it will shoot.

Why do you think guys are competition are loading with a mallet ? It is definately not because they like loading with mallets, it is because they like the ball/patch combo tight = better & more consistant accuracy.

Do they drive the balls down all the way with the mallet?

Dan

Longknife · « **Reply #12 on:** April 10, 2009, 06:03:37 PM »

Quote from: Bookie on April 04, 2009, 09:43:46 PM

Birddog6, I have such a make it yourself tool listed in one of my "how to" books and have performed several tests over the years. The results obtained so far agree with your statement concerning tight combinations. I can load a .530 ball and a .010 patch with the rod only. Any thing over those sizes requires a starter of some fashion in most cases unless the bore is cleaned well between each shot. My chunk gun is coned and requires a .495 ball and a .018 patch for optimum accuracy, but it requires a few blows from a mallet and nylon tampon to get'er started. Cheers, Bookie P.S. Why Bird Dog 6? Call sign perhaps?

Bookie, I bow to you experience and confirm that you are correct in the specefics of your coning tool. I actually used yours as a guide to make mine but changed the specs. Your tool tapers from .280 to .700 in its 3 1/4 inches, This a difference of .420. This tool will allow a loose patch/ball combo to be loaded quite easily. When I designed my tool the taper is much more gradual, in 3 1/4 inches it tapers only .286. This gradual taper will cut as much longer cone and allow you to load a much tighter patch/ball combo without the use of a short starter. ...Ed

tg · « **Reply #13 on:** April 11, 2009, 04:19:30 AM »

" no, I disagree. There is nothing wrong"

You must not have been listening Birddog, Dan said it was wrong

jolasa · « **Reply #14 on:** December 11, 2013, 12:03:53 AM »

Is Ed Hamberg still selling his coning tool?

Email or links please?

JonS

Pete G. · « **Reply #15 on:** December 11, 2013, 02:27:37 AM »

If you make the tool available in the 3:5 GM ratio it will really get the boys going at each other.

jolasa · « **Reply #16 on:** December 11, 2013, 03:50:56 AM »

What is a GM ratio?

JonS

Ky-Flinter · « **Reply #17 on:** December 11, 2013, 05:18:48 AM »

Golden Mean.

-Ron

little joe · « **Reply #18 on:** December 11, 2013, 05:32:23 AM »

Has anyone ran any groups befour and after coning?

galamb · « **Reply #19 on:** December 11, 2013, 05:44:32 AM »

Unless you jigger it, a coned barrel should shoot no better/no worse than it did "un-coned" - all else being equal....

Vomitus · « **Reply #20 on:** December 11, 2013, 08:12:59 AM »

To cone or not to cone?...that is the question. Myself,I wouldn't bother.A good smoothed crown works just fine. I have a cool little rifle that IS coned. Shoots good. But,it's a PITA to load. Cutting patch at the muzzle is %@#^ing impossible.(for me) I keep pulling the thumbstarted ball out with the patch tail before it gets cut. I use a short starter on all my guns,rifles. With pre-cut patches,the coned muzzle works great with a thick patch and a .005 smaller ball then the bore.Short starter of course. I love that little accuracy tool. I make mine out of a dense moose antler crown and a piece of hickory ramrod. Fits right in with my other antler accoutrements.

I'm not defending or promoting cones. If I had a choice for my own build,I would just crown it.The coned forty shoots into an inch at 50yds, good enough for me.She's just a pain to load cutting patch at the muzzle...jus sayin

jolasa · « **Reply #21 on:** December 11, 2013, 08:46:31 AM »

Define what a crowned barrel looks like, and how one gets a crowned barel?

Jonas

davec2 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 11, 2013, 09:07:28 AM »

I made these for myself a while back. The old fashioned one does not work as well (patterned after one in Peter Alexander's book) as the more modern spiral cut version that I prefer (left hand twist, right hand cut). Takes about 60 seconds to put a very smooth cone in the barrel and the brass pilot keeps the tool dead center and square to the muzzle.

galamb · « **Reply #23 on:** December 11, 2013, 03:36:15 PM »

The "crown" of a barrel is simply a slight chamfer at the muzzle end (you get varying opinions on what angle or degree of the chamfer is best) that allows the very end of the rifling to remain protected from damage by recessing it a bit in the end of the barrel.

A coned barrel takes this recess somewhat/considerably further by cutting back the rifling in a cone shape (think of an ice cream cone shape with the scoop of ice cream sitting on the muzzle and the cone extending down the barrel).

A coned barrel is designed to ease loading and may allow for greater accuracy (which is where the differing opinions come in).

My personal take on coned barrels is as follows: Rice and Colerain specifically state that you void the warranty on one of their barrels if it is coned. Green Mountain voids the warranty on "altered" barrels. Between those three companies they probably have a fairly decent market share in muzzle loading barrels.

If coning significantly improved things in a manner that could be well proven/quantified certainly one of them would be doing it as a matter of practice to gain a performance advantage over the competition.

Depending on how YOU use the rifle there may be some advantages, for the average shooter there may not be. In any case, not something I would do unless I had a very specific need - so no coned barrels to date.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #24 on:** December 11, 2013, 04:24:09 PM »

Before a heated discussion of the pro's and con's of muzzle coning develops, have there been any bench rest studies done on the effect of coning?

Thanks to Larry Pletcher's high speed flint ignition studies, we have the science on the value of a coned touch hole.

News:

Author Topic: Coning a barrel (Read 17043 times)

Daryl

Birddog6

Birddog6

Birddog6

R Meyer

tg

jolasa

jolasa

galamb

Vomitus

jolasa

galamb