Sanding - do you remove ALL visible marks?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I have 60, 150, and 320 grit paper on hand.  As I worked with the 60 grit to finish out the shaping, then moved on to the 150.  After covering what I thought was a thorough job with the 150 I still see scratches from either the 60 or the rasp or whatever machine TVM uses to shape their kits.  It seem like it will take forever.

Do I go back to the 60 grit?

The problem is the small scratches SEEM like they are gone but show up when I start using finer paper.

[axelp]

Like an old house painter told me once; "its all in the prep." You want to get rid of the marks that you don't want on there, and leave the marks you want to have on there. If you want it pristine, it does take forever. lol.

I have learned that the finish the old dead guys ended with, was not always what we expect today because they did more scraping instead of sanding---but scraping done right can be very smooth. And of course there is a difference between bumps and dings on top of stains and finishes, and bumps and dings under the stains and finishes...

never give up, never surrender.

K

[smart dog]

Hi BJ,
How many tool marks to leave or none at all is a personal decision.  Often, evidence of gouge and chisel use is very appealing.  Regardless, I urge you to use scapers to get rid of the unwanted marks.  They work much faster than sandpaper and do a superior job. You can sand with fine papers afterwards but scrapers will get rid of the marks better than anything else.  My favorite tool for cleaning up the wood is a #9 Pfeil chip carving knife.  It has 2 parallel edges and a skewed front edge.  All 3 edges can be sharpened razor sharp and work extremely well to scrape wood around details and carving. Large straight, and  French curve cabinet scrapers work well on larger convex and concave surfaces.  Finally, a small half round scrape is very useful around the lock moldings and cheek piece.

dave    

[BillingsDave]

As an old shop teacher, I can tell you your problem is that you are skipping too many grades of sandpaper. It would take forever to remove the marks left by 60 grit with 150 grit. I would suggest 60-80-120-150-220-320.

[WadePatton]

I like to saw and chisel and plane and whittle (draw knife) right up until I use the rasps and files, then scrape and scrape some more.  If I sand it's usually going to be 220 or higher grit (practically zero shaping-just smoothing), trying to avoid sanding as much as possible.  Also I like some "non-perfectness" to be left behind, not enough for a casual glance but only noticed by closer observation.

Perfection is nice, but it's the pursuit of perfection that drives those who make the best stuff.    (not me, I'm just workin' on it!)

-edit-

In complete agreement with BillingsDave, plus something I didn't quite get about sandpaper for a while. Less pressure gives shallower scratches.  So if you let up for the final passes of any grade, the next grade doesn't have as much work to do.

[jerrywh]

 I really don't care what the old guys did back when. I make mine as nice as I possibly can.  Never sand across the grain. If you do it is very hard to remove the scratches. I only use 60 grit for shaping. I start with 100 go to 220 and finish after whiskering with 320. Always sanding with the grain. Any body can stop at any point they want. 

[bob in the woods]

 I scrape , and try to get as smooth a surface as possible, then burnish .

[Dave B]

I have always hated to use sandpaper.  It must be sharp to do its best work. Once dull pitch it.  I like using the cutting tools for the rough shaping part, jumt to the cabinetmakers rasp for blending then to scrapers. The last couple of projects the coarsest paper was 220 grit. I have an original but stock study piece that shows the marks of being only finished with a scraper. The wrist in particular shows distinct facets if you hold it in the light just right. I have tried taking a picture of it but I need to work on my lighting the flash washes out the contours.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

As an old shop teacher, I can tell you your problem is that you are skipping too many grades of sandpaper. It would take forever to remove the marks left by 60 grit with 150 grit. I would suggest 60-80-120-150-220-320.

Yep.  I dug around some more and found some 100 grit and that helped some.  Going to go to the hardware store and get me a proper set of sand paper. 

Never took a shop class - much to my regret.  Dang commies in public school directed me to the "college" track just 'cuz I was good at math-n-science.

[Darkhorse]

I try to remove all those tooling marks with rasps and files while shaping the stock. Then the sandpaper is used to get the stock as smooth and perfect as possible.
If you are seeing the tooling marks left when TVM carved the stock then I would think it still needs slimming up a good bit with files or scrapers before you start with the sandpaper.

[Mike Brooks]

As an old shop teacher, I can tell you your problem is that you are skipping too many grades of sandpaper. It would take forever to remove the marks left by 60 grit with 150 grit. I would suggest 60-80-120-150-220-320.

Yep.  I dug around some more and found some 100 grit and that helped some.  Going to go to the hardware store and get me a proper set of sand paper. 

Never took a shop class - much to my regret.  Dang commies in public school directed me to the "college" track just 'cuz I was good at math-n-science.

Forget the hunerd grit and get something to scrape with. You can even use a razor blade or a carpet knife blade. That is the quickest way to get out the tool marks. I usually whisker with 150 or 220.

[flehto]

I use  Red Devil  single edged razor blades for scrapers...east to contour or use straight....just grind a flat edge, stone and use.  After scraping, 220 grit paper is used for the final sanding and whiskering.  After the stain is completely dry, a good rubbing  w/ 0000 steel wool  removes any unabsorbed stain, any remaining whiskers and really smoothes  the surfaces.

Yes...I do remove all surface defects and these become more visible by using a very diluted orange toner stain.....Fred

[rfd]

run a hook on a single edge razor blade - makes an excellent scraper for cheap.

[EC121]

A lot of times I stain the wood with leftover stains.  This shows all the imperfections.  Most of the time the stain is just on the surface and easily removed.  I have also diluted it with water or alcohol to reduce coloring.  Then just scrape or sand until the stain and scratches are gone then use your stain of choice.   

[jerrywh]

 Ec121
    The process you describe is used by custom body men when sanding show cars for painting.  We called it color sanding.  It will show every flaw.

[Dphariss]

I really don't care what the old guys did back when. I make mine as nice as I possibly can.  Never sand across the grain. If you do it is very hard to remove the scratches. I only use 60 grit for shaping. I start with 100 go to 220 and finish after whiskering with 320. Always sanding with the grain. Any body can stop at any point they want. 

I concur but I used to stock guns for people who were paying high end for the guns, they had to be perfect.
(balance of post deleted in deference).


Dan

[Hemo]

A lot of times I stain the wood with leftover stains.  This shows all the imperfections.  Most of the time the stain is just on the surface and easily removed.  I have also diluted it with water or alcohol to reduce coloring.  Then just scrape or sand until the stain and scratches are gone then use your stain of choice.   

Another similar trick you can use, which I have tried and found to work, is when you are whiskering with water, you can add a little concentrated yellow food coloring to the water. When it dries, the food coloring will collect in unseen scratches and show up as a brownish line. You can then target these spots with a scraper or light sanding.

Gregg

[Scota4570]

3M now makes "pro grade" sandpaper.  IT is better.   It is purple or red.  IT has much sharper grit and lasts much longer than the old tan colored type.  It resists pluggin up.  t cuts fast, and lasts longer.  I used to use the black type but it plugs up with wood.  The new kind is worth a try.

[Turtle]

 I have decided it's easier to start with a finer grit sandpaper even though it doesn't cut as fast. no course sand scratches. Now using  #220.
                                                      Turtle

[Pete G.]

I really don't care what the old guys did back when. I make mine as nice as I possibly can. 

I used to think that the old guys back when used scrapers because they didn't have anything better. I have since learned that the IS nothing better.

[dogcatcher]

I am anal about sanding, I sand everything to at least 600 grit.  It doesn't matter if it a piece of furniture, a gunstock or a game call.  I use sandpaper like someone else is paying for it, I prefer the  Norton and Klingspor brands.  Getting rid of every little tool mark may not be period correct, but I want my "stuff" to be made as good as I can.  I am not making antiques, but modern day reproductions that are supposed to be new.

Beside I can spot a tool mark or sloppy sanding job across the room and to know it was there would ruin the appeal for it.  In my mind it would be a reject.  I have a wood stove for those creations. 

[Thawk]

Yes  it's the invisible ones that kill me every time..

[yulzari]

I was taught to scrape with broken glass of the thin greenhouse window type. Also broken bottles give you curved scrapers. These days the replaceable knife blades  are easier to handle and safe to use.

In order of use: rasp, file, scraper.

[PPatch]

If you are not familiar with making or sharpening scrapers there are a lot of YouTube videos on the subject. I have and use quite a few in various shapes at various stages of the stock shaping. Sandpaper only comes in toward the very end and for final smoothing. Some scrapers I make from old saw blades, others from any sort of semi springy steel I find that look promising. Try stuff, you will soon learn what works.

I used to go through all the "steps" in sharpening straight edged scrapers (and a few of the larger rounded ones) you'll see in those videos. These days I simply file along the edge a few strokes with a 12" mill bastard file then quickly burnish the edge with a polished steel round bar. I do make the last few strokes at a very slight angle to the edge. That's it, quick and easy, and they cut rapidly, just as if you went all "perfect" and ultra anal in trying to roll the edge and all that jazz.

Cast a low angle light over your stock, wet the stock with some mineral spirits,  those marks, indentations and most other unwanted stuff will show up much better.

dave