turn barrel

[dmb25]

I recently started building a swivel breach using the plans in the book Building a Swivel Breech by Dave Waters. So far I used a wire EDM to cut out these two parts below before I go further any one have any tips or thing to watch out for.  

[Mike Brooks]

Pretty nifty this new technology. I'd watch out for building the rest of the gun!

[JCKelly]

Suggest something like AISI 1070 (or 1074) for the spring

[pushboater]

David, I'm also in the process of ever so slowly building a swivel breech using Dave's book as a general road map. Don't get me wrong, if you follow Dave's plans to the letter, you'll end up with a fine rifle that anyone would be proud of. I'm kind of a lazy person and I tend to take the easier way of doing things if I have a choice. As you know, Dave takes a Front action Manton Lock and modifies practically every part to transform it into a Back Action lock. The end result works great and is time tested on many rifles. I however, chose to use the internals of the readily available L&R back action lock, and simply mounted them onto my lock plate. The only downside to this approach is that the mainspring on the L&R lock is VERY long and, IMHO, makes the lock look funny. You can use Dave's idea of a Clevis Block to shorten the lock, however, I was never able to get the block properly secured to my lock plate in order to withstand the pressure exerted by the mainspring. After several attempts I decided to look for an alternative. Forging a custom Mainspring was one option, but after searching for a while I found a much better and simpler solution.  L&R also makes a back action Small Pistol Lock. This lock is for a small Darringer size pistol and has a very strong mainspring. I don't have it mounted yet, but it's the perfect size and I think it's going to work great. Using this mainspring has the added advantage of eliminating the Sear Spring as the bottom of the mainspring, with a little shortening and reshaping, serves that purpose. All in all its been a very satisfying and rewarding project. I still have a ways to go, but I'm still having fun and that's what counts. Whatever direction you choose to take your project I wish you the best of luck. Looks like you've got a lot more resources at your disposal than I have and hopefully it won't take you near as long as it's taken me. Good luck, and keep the photos coming!

Capt. David

[dmb25]

thanks everyone for all the advice a little update I just ordered the internal lock parts that will then be modified. If any one is courios there is a video describing the process I used to cut out those parts and hear is a photos of those parts when I drew them so I could program the machien. I know using all this technology is cheating  but my next one ill try doing it with only hand tools.  

[dmb25]

progress got the two swivel plates cut out and got the dovetails milled in 
 

[pushboater]

Technology sure is nice. I'm relegated to using the hacksaw and file technique. Keep the progress photos coming!

[dmb25]

that is relay nice you will have a lot more pride in yours when you get it done doing it that way

[pushboater]

It's just a different way of doing it David.  I guarantee that You'll have just as much pride, and an equal sense of accomplishment When you finish as I will. It'll just take me a lot longer to reach my goal of a finished rifle. Yours will be built to tighter tolerances, where as mine is more of a, if it fits, functions, and looks good, then it'll work for me kinda build. Keep the progress photos coming! Any kind of Swivel Breech project fascinates me!

Capt. David

[pushboater]

David, I sent you a PM.

[Hungry Horse]

 I don't have a problem with modern technology, but there is a pitfall in using it. It is really easy to depend on it, and using it where hand work would serve you better. What happens, is often guns built with a lot of machine tools tend to have little character, and look a lot like a really nice kit gun, instead of a hand built rifle. This is something you must guard against if you want a truly outstanding rifle.

  Hungry Horse

[Acer Saccharum]

If you have the machines, use them. Especially if you can get good or better results in less time. There is a lot to be said for handwork; everyone should have a good working knowledge around the bench. My opinion: try to keep the work traditional, even when using modern machines. A gun that is completely machine made looks machine made; it loses something of its character in the sterility of geometric perfection.

That said, the most useful area for machinery will be the swivel joint; making the trunion square and true to the swivel faces, cutting threads and making locknuts. In the lock, making screws, drilling and tapping lock screw threads, etc.

[dmb25]

ya I agree building this project for me is a good way of reviewing all the machinery skills I learned in college before i enter industry and also making a neat project. In regards to looks I am only using the machinery for the action and all the wood working and decoration on the metal part will be done the old way with out power tools to keep that look of a hand built gun. I do plan on latter on and preferable after i get some casting equipment around building one 100% traditional.

[dmb25]

progress of the internals of the lock

[Bob Roller]

Single limb and linked mainspring. My first locks were like that and I got the idea
from P.I.Spence in Marietta,Ohio who was active at 95+ in the early 1950's.
I visited him once in 1957 and he gave me a sheet of high quality spring steel
he called 1075. It's what I learned with and still use it.
Your lock looks good to me so keep it up.

Bob Roller

[smart dog]

Hi David,
I've examined and worked on a couple of swivel breech rifles that were of Dave Water's design.  On both guns, the single leaf mainspring was weak. On one gun, the maker put a little wedge that fit tightly between the mainspring and the sear spring.  The wedge gave the mainspring much more leverage and strength.  My other suggestion is to change the shape of the front plates such that wood from the forestock panels surrounds the plates on 3 sides.



In my opinion, that looks much better than having the plate fill the entire space and it helps to slim down the shape of the lock area, which often looks slab sided or blocky showing too much metal on many swivel breech guns.

dave

[dmb25]

thanks for the advice and your rifle looks amazing smart. I am real courios about this wedge idea if you have photos and could share I would greatly appreciate it . And I also agree depending on what school and size of gun I end up doing I plan of filing both the lock plate and swivel plate to what ever I find looks good and historical

[pushboater]

Looking great Dave! I'm going to try and get my mainspring mounted in a couple of days to see if it's going to work like I think it will. Here's a photo of my first attempt. L&R Backaction internals. Are those the modified Manton internals you're using?

[smart dog]

Hi David,
I don't have photos but if you look at Pushboater's photo above, the wedge was a little rectangular block of steel wedged between the sear spring and mainspring.  It may have been about 3/8" long and butted against the lug holding the mainspring.  It was on a lock from a gun owned by Bill Paton who is a member of this forum.  Maybe he will chime in.

dave   

[Bob Roller]

Looking great Dave! I'm going to try and get my mainspring mounted in a couple of days to see if it's going to work like I think it will. Here's a photo of my first attempt. L&R Backaction internals. Are those the modified Manton internals you're using?

 Taper that spring and reset the preload by curving it upward.
That thick spring has to be stiff and stiff is different from strong.

Bob Roller

[smart dog]

Hi,
Bob, your solution is also what I did to another lock of Water's design.  I added preload to the mainspring and that solved the problem. The tumbler and flint cock have a very short throw on that lock and that is part of the problem.  The mainspring does not get deflected very much and when the flintcock is all the way forward, the spring has little strength left.  Arching it upward works well to correct that.

dave

[pushboater]

The problem I was having is that I couldn't keep the Clevis block anchored to the lock plate. Of course, Silver solder isn't near strong enough, and I'm not what you'd call an expert Brazer by any sense if the imagination! After several attempts to properly braze the Clevis Block I simply decided to try a different solution. I first tried using the upward curved mainspring to preload the tension, but since I used L&R internals I ran into the problem of the mainspring bottoming out on the lower end of the tumbler support plate before it could come to full cock. I believe I've finally solved the problem though. We'll see!

Capt. David

[dmb25]

I agree with you that i dont like just having the silver brazing holding the spring block on so I actually put a screw in it.  with the lock if I make the link the holds the spring and the tumbler together slightly smaller then the book recommends to give more tension or would that not solve the problem?

[pushboater]

Dave, if you have a halfway decent braze you shouldn't have any problem with it holding. My attempt at brazing was terrible and it still held up for 4 or 5 cycles before the Clevis block broke loose.  It is a tried and proven method of securing the block, and with the added screw it should work great for you. I don't think I'd mess with the size of the link. Like Bob said earlier, if you taper the spring some it should still be strong enough, but won't put quite as much stress on the Clevis block. Just my opinion.

Capt David.

[Bob Roller]

I agree with you that i dont like just having the silver brazing holding the spring block on so I actually put a screw in it.  with the lock if I make the link the holds the spring and the tumbler together slightly smaller then the book recommends to give more tension or would that not solve the problem?

IF that spring is stiff like it looks like it might be then the short link might let go
when the lock is brought to full cock. The link that's there now doesn't look very stout either.
I would make a new and thinner,tapered spring with a curving preload that will give a whip like action
when released. This will give better function if you can get the spring done as I described.
If I had done this clevis block a screw AND a pin would be my method of choice to fasten it to the plate.
Bob Roller