Longrifles have spoiled me

[Nordnecker]

Over the last 3 or 4 years, I have built 3 longrifles and have another one planned for this winter. I don't target shoot a lot but have only shot my longrifles for the last few years. I wanted to sight in another (modern) rifle the other day and I swear, I couldn't shoot it. It was so short it was floating all over the place. I was using a rest but it felt so out of balance.
I've also gotten spoiled by set triggers. I was trying to squeeze off a round and it was so hard by comparison it was just, well, awkward. I read recently about the Creedmore range and it said rifles couldn't have less than 3 lbs pull on the trigger. Why? My set triggers go off with only ounces of pull and I like it.
Gotta go for now.

[PPatch]

"...I read recently about the Creedmore range and it said rifles couldn't have less than 3 lbs pull on the trigger. Why?"

Short answer: safety, in a group shooting event. The lighter the pull the more apt someone is to misfire.

In my opinion a 3lb pull is plenty adequate for target shooting.

You're hooked!  Since I've been making longrifles I have lost all interest in the more modern stuff, in fact I have sold off just about all of them.

dave

[hanshi]

Another shooter at the local range let me use his trigger pull weight tool.  The rifle I was holding had a 13 ounce pull when set.  Others ranged from about 10 to 13 ounces.  I have another that's so touchy (trigger assembly messed up) I don't use it in set mode; it can't be over 8 to 10 ounces UN-set.  My single trigger fowler has a very light pull as does my pistol.  The pull on my US M1841 "Mississippi" rifle is very nice but a little heavier than the others.  Two of my flintlocks, favorites, have exceptional un-set pulls and I often shoot them that way.

[Bob Roller]

"...I read recently about the Creedmore range and it said rifles couldn't have less than 3 lbs pull on the trigger. Why?"

Short answer: safety, in a group shooting event. The lighter the pull the more apt someone is to misfire.

In my opinion a 3lb pull is plenty adequate for target shooting.

You're hooked!  Since I've been making longrifles I have lost all interest in the more modern stuff, in fact I have sold off just about all of them.

dave

The locks used in these long range rifles (muzzle loaders) are of a quality seldom seen today and
can be adjusted to nearly any trigger pull wanted. A light trigger has NOTHING to do with a misfire.
The mainsprings in these locks will be more than ample to fire the cap (or primer).The mechanisms in these locks is VERY stable and the sear pivots on a precise pin or axle which in turn is working with a very precisely fit tumbler fit to both the bridle and lock plate.
Maybe someone on the forum can post pictures of these elegant mechanisms. They are NOT production work.

Bob Roller

[madmtmike]

This thread is as good as place as any to ask a couple of questions.
I've always shot & been around rifled percussion guns, mostly Hawkens.
I see more & more flinters & a lot of people prefer them. I questioned one flint user about this.
He preferred them over all others. He even stated that some locks are so fast that they could fire the main charge without a priming charge. Said he has a picture that somebody took of him firing one of his rifles & smoke was already coming out of the barrel before the frizzen pan had turned over. So my question is; can a flinter actually ignite the main charge without a priming charge?
Another question; I see that some shooters like smooth bore rifles. I know they had a place in history but why would you hunt or shoot one since we have perfect rifled barrels?
Thanks in advance.
madmtmike

[Dennis Glazener]

So my question is; can a flinter actually ignite the main charge without a priming charge?

Yes I have fired my 54 cal Jacob Dickert hunting rifle without priming, however I would not depend it doing that every time.

In my area of VA deer are often killed less than 50 yards most smooth bore are plenty able to place kill shots st that distance or further. Plus you can load small shot for upland game, Turkey, ducks, geese etc
Dennis

[Darkhorse]

If you don't prime your flinter and a spark bounces through the touchhole then the weapon will fire. I don't really see this a product of lock speed but more in the realm of luck. However a well tuned lock can be mighty fast. I have one that as far as I can tell is right up there with a caplock.
With a smoothbore you can shoot both bird shot and roundball. It is much more versatile than a rifled gun. And when shooting a lot it can be loaded faster after the fouling builds up than a rifle.
Personally I like a rifled barrel but I can see where the smoothbore could have a place in my battery.
I prefer the flintlock and no longer own any caplocks. If I'm careful I know my flintlock will go off when I squeeze the trigger every time. And a flinter is just more fun to shoot than the caplocks.

[Daryl]

"...I read recently about the Creedmore range and it said rifles couldn't have less than 3 lbs pull on the trigger. Why?"

Short answer: safety, in a group shooting event. The lighter the pull the more apt someone is to misfire.

In my opinion a 3lb pull is plenty adequate for target shooting.

You're hooked!   Since I've been making longrifles I have lost all interest in the more modern stuff, in fact I have sold off just about all of them.

dave

PPatch - I think you meant someone might have an accident if the pulls were lighter.  A misfire is when the gun fails to go off.  A light pull will not cause a "misfire" - unless the sear drops into the 1/2 cock notch - which could only happen with a poorly designed or poorly altered lock.

Trigger pull limits were set to "EVEN" the playing field, that's all.

As Bob R. noted, a GOOD 3 pound trigger feels much lighter, sharper, than a BAD or POOR 3 pound trigger that may have a long and/or gritty pull.  Too, the wider the trigger shoe, the less "FELT" pull it takes to trip the sear.

As late as the 1970's, the 3-position and Prone match rifle trigger minimum was set at 3 pounds. In the 80's that was reduced to 1 kilogram, which is 2.2 pounds.

I have tried to get all 4 of my flinters to fire without prime - none of them would in some 5 attempts each. Note, I made sure there was NO powder in the pan.  An overly large vent hole will self-prime if the frizzen is closed when the ball is shoved down the bore.  Some of the main charge may stick to previous fouling in the pan and thus self-prime somewhat, even when loading with the frizzen in the open position.
I'm not saying the gun cannot fire without priming, just that I could not make it happen with any of my rifles in the test I performed which amounted to about 20 tries. All of my guns had 1/16" vents and I wiped the pan clear to ensure NO powder granuals were present.

[Mike Brooks]

This thread is as good as place as any to ask a couple of questions.
I've always shot & been around rifled percussion guns, mostly Hawkens.
I see more & more flinters & a lot of people prefer them. I questioned one flint user about this.
He preferred them over all others. He even stated that some locks are so fast that they could fire the main charge without a priming charge. Said he has a picture that somebody took of him firing one of his rifles & smoke was already coming out of the barrel before the frizzen pan had turned over. So my question is; can a flinter actually ignite the main charge without a priming charge?
Another question; I see that some shooters like smooth bore rifles. I know they had a place in history but why would you hunt or shoot one since we have perfect rifled barrels?
Thanks in advance.
madmtmike

The last rifle I built for myself is the fastest I have ever owned or shot....or at least it seems that way. It has a Chambers Early Ketland and a 5/16" White Lightnin' touch hole liner. It's probably a combination of those two good things.

[Brokennock]

This thread is as good as place as any to ask a couple of questions.
I've always shot & been around rifled percussion guns, mostly Hawkens.
I see more & more flinters & a lot of people prefer them. I questioned one flint user about this.
He preferred them over all others. He even stated that some locks are so fast that they could fire the main charge without a priming charge. Said he has a picture that somebody took of him firing one of his rifles & smoke was already coming out of the barrel before the frizzen pan had turned over. So my question is; can a flinter actually ignite the main charge without a priming charge?
Another question; I see that some shooters like smooth bore rifles. I know they had a place in history but why would you hunt or shoot one since we have perfect rifled barrels?
Thanks in advance.
madmtmike

Versatility. In my smooth rifle, I can shoot round ball for deer, traditionally loaded shot for small game, or shot in a heavy paper shot cup for turkey. Some states allow all theses types of game to be taken with a muzzle loading rifle, a few regardless of caliber, but here small game is restricted to a round ball between .32 and .36 caliber and deer are legal from .45 and up, turkey with any rifle is a no go. But, a 20 gauge shotgun covers everything.

[PPatch]

PPatch - I think you meant someone might have an accident if the pulls were lighter.  A misfire is when the gun fails to go off.  A light pull will not cause a "misfire" - unless the sear drops into the 1/2 cock notch - which could only happen with a poorly designed or poorly altered lock.

Trigger pull limits were set to "EVEN" the playing field, that's all.

As Bob R. noted, a GOOD 3 pound trigger feels much lighter, sharper, than a BAD or POOR 3 pound trigger that may have a long and/or gritty pull.  Too, the wider the trigger shoe, the less "FELT" pull it takes to trip the sear.

Daryl you are correct, misfire was the wrong term. Basically my thought when I began to type my remark was of the Nut behind the trigger, and all that finely tuned gun furniture, negligently discharging (ND) their gu,. My had nothing to do with quality equipment, and I'm not knocking anyone, I know the long range shooters are veteran firearms handlers. My only point, and I have witnessed ND's at shooting matches twice (shooting those "other" kinda guns). A crazy light trigger pull on a GI style rifle was involved in one of those incidents. After that a "3lb rule" was put in place. So that experience is where my answer was coming from.

Mea Culpa.

dave

[hanshi]

I'm a confirmed flintlock shooter.  I've noticed that since I burn mostly 3F, some of my rifles will self prime if bumped a little; and the vent holes are always drilled out to only 1/16".  I have one rifle that is (to me) ultra fast and ultra reliable.  I tested the rifle to see if it would fire without prime more than a year ago.  Out of quite a few attempts, it DID fire often enough to cause concern.  It may have self primed some of those times but I've never seen more than half a dozen kernels in the pan on those occasions when it did self prime.

Being more of a rifleman than anything else that's where my interest lies.  However, there is a flint smoothbore in the stable and I like it.  The last deer I shot was with the smoothbore.  It will frequently fire sub 3", three shot groups at 50 yards and five shots generally group inside a pie plate at that distance.  I don't shoot a lot of bird shot so the "versatility" is not as great of a bonus to me as to some others.  I feel as confident taking the smoothbore into the bush as I do a rifle. 

[WadePatton]

As one who spent some time on the bench collecting prizes, I cannot STAND a crappy trigger.

As one who now pretty much only shoots flinters, I consider my gun "safe" only when the flashhole is plugged.  I don't care if I think it's loaded or not, if the flashhole is blocked, it WILL have a difficult time firing.

This goes to absolute fundamentals and eliminates many variables such as lock and trigger and prime. 

featherhole.

[Natureboy]

  An important rule to follow to prevent accidental discharge is to keep your finger OFF the trigger until you're totally ready to shoot.  With the super-sensitive set triggers, any slight adjustment in the gun's position can create enough pull on the trigger to set it off if your finger is resting on the trigger.  And while you're at it, don't grip the wrist like a hammer or axe, with your thumb wrapped around it.  Point your thumb at the tang, so the only pressure on the piece will be your trigger finger.  Holding the wrist like a hammer makes your hand squeeze it, causing movement and inaccurate shooting.

[Darkhorse]

As one who spent some time on the bench collecting prizes, I cannot STAND a crappy trigger.

As one who now pretty much only shoots flinters, I consider my gun "safe" only when the flashhole is plugged.  I don't care if I think it's loaded or not, if the flashhole is blocked, it WILL have a difficult time firing.

This goes to absolute fundamentals and eliminates many variables such as lock and trigger and prime. 

featherhole.

I agree wholeheartedly with this post. I've been at this shooting game over 50 years and I liked to win or shoot tiny groups, or just hit where I'm aiming. And I also can't stand a crappy trigger. The thousands of shots I've fired has taught me how to safely handle a gun with a good, light trigger.
I keep some round toothpicks in my bag, in my truck, and scattered around where I can get one if I need it. Except for when I'm hunting or actively shooting a half of a round toothpick is in the touchhole, all prime is wiped away, and the flint is let down on a leather hammer stall. When traveling to the hunting area the lock is also wrapped in a cows knee with the straps crossed behind and in front of the hammer.

[Brokennock]

I do seem to recall some years ago when I was active on another, now defunct, m.l. forum, the owner of said forum put a hole in his cabin wall with an unprimed flintlock.

[Dennis Glazener]

Bob Roller asked me to post this photo for him. He will have to tell you about it.
Dennis

[Bob Roller]

Bob Roller asked me to post this photo for him. He will have to tell you about it.
Dennis

Dennis,
Thanks for posting this. I have had inquiries about the mechanisms in my locks and
this one is the one I use in all of my Hawken locks even though it's in a Schuetzen
lock,one of three I made for a German for his project.The mechanism is a bench crafted
one and the plate is from L&R and the hammer is a Davis they use on their English target
rifle lock.This is representative of all my locks and vary only in size and small details.
At this point in time I am not asking for new work due to a number of orders still to be
made. I will NOT accept deposits or advance payment for any reason.
Thanks for looking at this lock.

Bob Roller

[OldMtnMan]

I had a set trigger that was 8oz when set. I never had an accident range shooting or hunting. I was always careful to not set the trigger until the muzzle was pointed at the target and the gun shouldered. I only shoot offhand. I think the light trigger is a big advantage in offhand shooting.

[Daryl]

I had a set trigger that was 8oz when set. I never had an accident range shooting or hunting. I was always careful to not set the trigger until the muzzle was pointed at the target and the gun shouldered. I only shoot offhand. I think the light trigger is a big advantage in offhand shooting.

Yes it is.

[David R. Pennington]

I am the same. I have not shot a modern long gun in years. I don't want to shoot anything but flintlocks.   I even wonder why they even bothered developing other firearms after the flintlock was perfected. I could never see myself reverting to the inferior caplock and have no interest in those new fangled breech loading contraptions. They will never catch on.

[OldMtnMan]

I am the same. I have not shot a modern long gun in years. I don't want to shoot anything but flintlocks.   I even wonder why they even bothered developing other firearms after the flintlock was perfected. I could never see myself reverting to the inferior caplock and have no interest in those new fangled breech loading contraptions. They will never catch on.

I agree. Why fiddle with those little tiny caps when I can just pour a little powder in a pan?

[WadePatton]

I am the same. I have not shot a modern long gun in years. I don't want to shoot anything but flintlocks.   I even wonder why they even bothered developing other firearms after the flintlock was perfected. I could never see myself reverting to the inferior caplock and have no interest in those new fangled breech loading contraptions. They will never catch on.

I haven't lit a cap since I finished my first rock-lock.     Might not ever again.

[hanshi]

I'm a confirmed flint shooter, true.  But I have a splendid .54 US M1841 "Mississippi" rifle that has taken deer in the past and is way more accurate than I am.  Then there is that little .45 short (25") heavy barrel kid's rifle built by Mike Lange - he calls them "rugrat" rifles - and, yes, I'm that small.  I've used that little caplock to win a couple of first place rankings, and am always in the top few, in a number of postal matches.  It's been a long time but who knows, I might yet take them into the bush one day.

[Daryl]

Taylor and I will both be "lighting" some caps this afternoon when we shoot the postal match.

When THINGS get serious, it's cap-lock time.