A "typical" long rifle

[red owl]

This would be something I build and would follow those made in Pennsylvania.  I realize that is a wide category but at this point I am trying to collect my thoughts. Time period probably about 1776-1800.
1.  What were the most common calibers? 45? 50? etc.
2. Straight versus swamped barrel.  Were half straight and half swamped or all swamped?
3. Barrel length, what was most common? 42" 44", other?
4. Single plain trigger or set trigger.  I think the breakdown was about 50/50 but any thoughts welcomes.
5. Bent butt stock, or cant. Most? Half? Other?
6. Cheek piece configuration?
My idea is to get an idea of what was most common and then try to find a more specific example to copy.

[SingleMalt]

I don't think there's a cut and dry answer to your questions.  Early, or transitional rifles are usually larger caliber with barrels having more "swamp" than later rifles.  Barrel length changes as rifles evolved from short Jaegers to longrifles. A Lehigh stock is very different from a York stock.  The list if differences is long.

Pick a time period and go from there.  That may work best for you.

[IROCZ]

I have always wondered about this myself, it seems most of the surviving pieces were the gunmakers best quality work and probably survived due to not being used daily. There must be a long rifle in between the "Shimmel" and the show piece. I think most probably looked like the one right under the words "American Long Rifle" at the top of this page! I know I need to study more. When I come to this site, I post little and read a lot,

[rich pierce]

Probably more rifles were made in Lancaster than anywhere else. If you chose a .45 to .50 cal rifle with a Lancaster style stock and daisy patch box with a C weight swamped barrel you'd have a fairly common but heavy rifle. Go B weight and you'll like it better. 44" is probably typical. I have an old Muzzle Blasts article by Shumway showing a fairly plain Lancaster rifle from that timeframe that would be a good model. PM me if you want a copy.

[Daryl]

A B weight might be better suited to a .45 rather than a .50.  If solely for hunting, then perhaps the lighter barrel for either calibre, but if competing at rendezvous, I'd suggest a "C" weight barrel in .50 & even .45 cal. Taylor's Virginia rifle is a super offhand rifle - with a "C" weight .50 cal. In .45, it would have been unbeatable - not that his .50 gets beaten very often.

[smart dog]

Hi Red Owl,
A couple of years ago I compiled a suite of measurements on all of the long rifles (rifled not smooth rifles) I had access to or for which measurements were published that were made before, during, or shortly after the Rev War.  I think I ended up with about 46 rifles.  The average caliber was 52, barrel length- 42", barrel width at breech - 1 1/16", barrels octagonal swamped, stock - maple, hardware - brass, patch boxes mostly 4-piece brass, modest carving, <1 brass inlay other than patch box.

dave   

[red owl]

Well, my biggest issue was a swamped barrel.  It sure saves weight.  I get the idea that swamped barrels were very common.  On length I sort of want 42-44" but want to keep an open mind.
   One other issue is curly maple.  How common was it?  Most rifles, just the best?  How much curl?

[rich pierce]

I would not worry too much as it seems you are looking for something generic.  Most rifles of that time frame in Pennsylvania were stocked in curly maple.  Even very plain rifles were sometimes stocked in very nice curly maple.  "Typical" is hard to define when there was so much variety.  Sort of like asking what is a typical car for 1990-2015.

Instead of imagining typical, I think it would be much more interesting to find an original that appeals to you, and re-create something close to that.  Otherwise you could end up with something without much character.

[smart dog]

Hi Red Owl,
Let me clarify some things based on my compilation of long rifle characteristics for rifles made between 1760?-1785 or so.  All barrels were swamped not just "common".  Perhaps straight barrels were made but of the 46 guns that met my criteria, all were swamped.  Ninety-five percent of that sample were stocked in maple with most being figured maple to some degree.  Over 90% had some carving and were mounted in brass.  Barrel length ranged from 37" to 51" but the average was 42".  Caliber ranged from 41 to 69 but the average was 52 and that was based on a symmetrical normal distribution, if you are familiar with simple statistics.  Again, based on data, the average barrel length was 42" and they all were tapered or swamped with an average breech width of 1 1/16".  No one can tell you the percent of curl or any of those other highly subjective measures.

dave 

[Clark Badgett]

I have always wondered about this myself, it seems most of the surviving pieces were the gunmakers best quality work and probably survived due to not being used daily. There must be a long rifle in between the "Shimmel" and the show piece. I think most probably looked like the one right under the words "American Long Rifle" at the top of this page! I know I need to study more. When I come to this site, I post little and read a lot,

I'm not sure if I would agree that the examples that remain today are all low usage pieces. Some are for sure, but many obviously are not top of the line, but are made with the best craftsmanship the maker could muster. I truly believe that in that era there was at least some embellishment on most rifles, even if just simple. Even military muskets and the lowly trade guns had some simple carving on the stocks, normally around the tang and lock.

[PPatch]

Hi Red Owl,
Let me clarify some things based on my compilation of long rifle characteristics for rifles made between 1760?-1785 or so.  All barrels were swamped not just "common".  Perhaps straight barrels were made but of the 46 guns that met my criteria, all were swamped.  Ninety-five percent of that sample were stocked in maple with most being figured maple to some degree.  Over 90% had some carving and were mounted in brass.  Barrel length ranged from 37" to 51" but the average was 42".  Caliber ranged from 41 to 69 but the average was 52 and that was based on a symmetrical normal distribution, if you are familiar with simple statistics.  Again, based on data, the average barrel length was 42" and they all were tapered or swamped with an average breech width of 1 1/16".  No one can tell you the percent of curl or any of those other highly subjective measures.

dave 

dave; Thanks! Highly interesting responses to Red Owl's question. I learned from it, enjoyed reading it.

dave too

[Mike Brooks]

You ought to go buy some books so you can figure out what you like. Guns had evolved quite a bit in the time between 1776 and 1800, not many characteristics were the same from the start of that time to the end so no description of common characteristics is possible. You're going to have to narrow down your time period.

[red owl]

Thanks for the help.  I've done a few percussion kits and did one percussion I made from scratch using parts and made the stock.  This will be my first flintlock.
1. I like the simple nature of a single stock pinned trigger.  I think I'd prefer it to a set trigger.
2. Sounds like I should opt for a swamped barrel.  I wasn't sure if swamped barrels are what today's builders use or if they were originally used a lot.
3. I'll likely go with a 42" barrel length
4. I'll go with maple that has some curl.  Due to my skills I don't think an extra fancy curl is in order.
5. Now......The percussion "mountain man" rifles were pretty simple.  On the American long rifle there are a lot of details- the pipes are filed with flats, ditto for the top of the butt plate.  The patch box lock etc. is complicated.  The mentioned carvings- not sure about them.
What I need is a book with lots of drawings or illustrations/photos showing all these items in detail.  What are some good books for this?

[rich pierce]

Rifles of Colonial America volume 1 remains the most valuable resource for builders, methinks. Volume 2 is next. I believe Lancaster rifles are in volume 1.

[SingleMalt]

Dr. George Shumway's "Rifles of Colonial America" Vols. I & II will help you a lot.

https://www.shumwaypublisher.com/shop/

[Ky-Flinter]

....... What I need is a book with lots of drawings or illustrations/photos showing all these items in detail.  What are some good books for this?

See this:  http://www.americanlongrifles.org/Books_frame.htm

-Ron

[sqrldog]

Red Owl
ALR' s virtual library is full of pictures of early rifles. Scroll down the forum's home page look under Pennsylvania rifles. While it is an octagon to round smoothbore the Pannabecker/Pennypacker rifle with an octogan swamped barrel of .50 .54 or 58 cal. would in my opinion (for what it's worth) be pretty typical of a working rifle with few frills and carving. Tim

[JTR]

Here's a link to the library sqrldog mentioned. Lot's of guns there, Great, and not so great and will give you a good idea of what was available. Shouldn't take more than a couple days to get through all of them!

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=21.0

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=111.0

[IROCZ]

Rifles of Colonial America volume 1 remains the most valuable resource for builders, methinks. Volume 2 is next. I believe Lancaster rifles are in volume 1.

Thanks.

[smart dog]

Hi,
I certainly value Shumway's books but David Hansen's book on American longrifles is without parallel.  As a builder, I value that book above all others.

dave

[Rolf]

Hi,
I certainly value Shumway's books but David Hansen's book on American longrifles is without parallel.  As a builder, I value that book above all others.

dave

I agree With smart dog. The Pictures are of a much higher quality. I have problems discerning  details  With Shumways black and white Pictures. I'd buy Hansen's bokk first.
Best regards
Rolf

[rich pierce]

Does Hansen's book have measurements?  I find that very helpful in the RCA series.

[smart dog]

Hi Rich,
Yes, in a table at the end.  In addition, David also provides exact scaled full length photos and provides a scalar conversion for each of those.  You can measure a dimension on the photo and then scale that up to full size using his conversion factors.  It is very valuable.  Plus, he provides photographic views useful to builders that no one else does.

dave

[bob in the woods]

My thoughts re "typical" is that you can end up with a mish mash i.e. like a Honda/Chevy/minivan with VW front end and truck tires.  That is one of the reasons that I purchased RCA 1 and 11  and also why I purchased a couple of Chamber's kits in the beginning. Their kits are based on originals.

[rich pierce]

Hi Rich,
Yes, in a table at the end.  In addition, David also provides exact scaled full length photos and provides a scalar conversion for each of those.  You can measure a dimension on the photo and then scale that up to full size using his conversion factors.  It is very valuable.  Plus, he provides photographic views useful to builders that no one else does.

dave

Look like I have to get that book.  Where?