Author Topic: TVM nearly done (Read 10280 times)

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **on:** November 03, 2016, 06:58:16 AM »

Not sure if I can really call this my first gun build since I've done a couple Lyman Great Plains kits and one TVM in-the-white before. But it is definitely a big step up in complexity yet it is also the best turn out.

I used steel wool dissolved in vinegar to stain, followed by a wiping of hydrogen peroxide. To brown the barrel, lock, and bolts I used vinegar, peroxide, and salt, warmed up the iron with a propane torch and sprayed on the browning solution. I applied the solution to the barrel cold for several days until I thought of heating it to speed up the reaction. I just heated enough to dry the metal in between applications. Not sizzling hot like you do for Birchwood-Casey's Plum Brown although if it did get that hot I just kept spraying it until it cooled a bit. The lock and small parts only took me about an hour including boiling them on the kitchen stove.

After removing the boiled-brown parts from the hot water I applied Johnson Paste Wax. I am pleased with the nice brown-black color and evenness.

There is one big problem with the front sight that I will post under a separate thread. Something about it is catty-wumpass and makes for a really bad sight picture.

DSC07583 by frozenfrizzen, on Flickr

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #1 on:** November 03, 2016, 06:59:54 AM »

DSC07578 by frozenfrizzen, on Flickr

DSC07577 by frozenfrizzen, on Flickr

DSC07576 by frozenfrizzen, on Flickr

DSC07575 by frozenfrizzen, on Flickr

DSC07574 by frozenfrizzen, on Flickr

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #2 on:** November 03, 2016, 02:02:53 PM »

Hard to see any details with the pictures so small, but it looks like a TVM from what I can see. If that was your goal you did an excellent job.

Turtle · « **Reply #3 on:** November 03, 2016, 02:46:38 PM »

Looks good. Which TVM did you deal with?
Turtle

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #4 on:** November 03, 2016, 04:02:02 PM »

Mike, are you being silly or serious? The pictures on my screen appear huge. But perhaps you mean for me to post some close-ups?

Turtle - it's Matt Avance's TVM.

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #5 on:** November 03, 2016, 04:29:02 PM »

Quote

If that was your goal you did an excellent job.

My goal? OK my goal was to make a decent looking longrifle. To get the inletting done well. To get the holes drilled straight and tapped. To get a good brown on the iron parts. To get a nice stain and finish on the wood that would bring out any figure (I did not request a premium grade stock). To try some simple relief carving, inlay, and incise carving that doesn't detract from the appearance. And a general goal - to beat Italian factory quality, to have a gun that doesn't make me wish I just spent my money on a Pedersoli.

I did OK on the inletting. A few mistakes. The buttplate is a tad crooked. A bit of a gouge along the edge of the lockplate, and the entry thimble's tang wobbles. The sideplate I am happy with. But I think I did better than some factory Italian guns.

The hole drilled center-to-center were a challenge - especially tapping them. But they work. They hold the trigger plate and lock plate in place. I am confident that my second gun (God willing) will come out much better.

The browning I am really happy with. I had posted a thread on here about using peroxide and vinegar on a couple factory guns and I wasn't real pleased at first. But I've since played around with it and have now gotten it to work VERY well. It is a fast process too. Can be done in a day. Doesn't require a box or any special humidity control.

The wood stain and finish actually isn't my best job. Best job on a gun, but I've done better knife handles. I thought I'd go with Boil Linseed Oil because the iron acetate stain wasn't quite as dark as I had hoped and I heard that BLO actually darkens the wood a little more. Well I got a little overzealous and applied coats too fast, too thick. It built up and got tacky. So I wiped it with kerosene, and rubbed of the tacky spots with steel wool. That made the lighter "highlights" in areas such as around the lock panel. In the photos the highlights don't look so good, in person they actually give the gun a nice "weathered" look. Not antiqued like an old gun that fell out of use for 100 years, but weathered like an old gun that some hunter has been using for years.

The carving: Well I still have a difficult time cleaning up the background right up close to the carving. But it only bothers me when I examine it closely - it doesn't make me thing, "what the Heck?" at first glance. Incise carving was much harder than I thought. Getting a clean line was difficult. I am pleased with the design, proportion, shape and location of the carving. I may end up wishing I did a little more on the right side of the buttstock. The inlay worked pretty well.

All in all I wanted a .36 that would look better than a Pedersoli. I think I accomplished that.

oldtravler61 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 03, 2016, 06:28:09 PM »

Black jaque you did a fine job. No matter your experience level in this. We all have are mistakes. The difference is with more you can hide them better IMHO. Keep positive your coming along well. Mike

Mikecooper · « **Reply #7 on:** November 04, 2016, 12:05:16 AM »

It's not finished is it? looks like the bottom of the butplate sticks out past the bottom of the stock. Or it just looks that way in the picture? Oh I just realized you said nearly done so maybe still a little work to do on it. Stain looks ok.

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #8 on:** November 04, 2016, 12:34:27 AM »

Mike, yes that is one of the last things I need to do. You'll notice there is no toeplate so leaving the buttplate a little proud in this area (especially while working on it) seemed like a wise choice. When I file it down it will only stick out a milimeter or so.

I also plan to give it a coat of Tung oil on top of the boiled linseed that is currently on it. And as noted in the other thread I need to resolve a problem with the front sight. Then I'm calling it DONE. I hope the groups are as nice as the rest.

Daryl · « **Reply #9 on:** November 04, 2016, 02:08:43 AM »

BlackJJ - it is better than I could do.
Are you going to file off the tang screw flush with the trigger plate? I would do that just so it didn't stick down proud.
A toe plate should be inlet, so I would think the butt plate lower tang should be even with the bottom of the stock as it is not, then the toe plate inlet to fit perfectly?

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #10 on:** November 04, 2016, 06:44:02 AM »

Daryl,

Yeah, I'll trim up the tang screw too.

There is no toe plate. There is not going to be one. So the buttplate will stick out - only a lot less than what it is in the pictures.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #11 on:** November 05, 2016, 01:01:22 PM »

About this buttplate sticking out of the toe thingy...It's a Woodbury school trait and wasn't purposely done on antique rifles. It reflects shrinkage over several hundred years. You don't have to worry about damaging the toe anyway, and that bit of brass poking up proud isn't going to prevent any imagined damage that probably won't happen.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #12 on:** November 06, 2016, 12:47:31 AM »

You are to be applauded for your effort, and the courage to share it with us. Good on you!

Are you interested in constructive critique? Ready or not, here I go...

Inlet your trigger guard returns, 'fore and aft' so that only the top three facets show above the wood. More than half will be inlet into the wood.
Reduce the size of lock panels above and below the lock to about 1/8". Some sculpting is necessary on the forward end of the panel at the barrel channel. The rear end of the panel would look better if it ended below the centre line of the wrist, rather than above it as you have done here. Tod get a better feel for this, study good contemporary and antique examples.
When you create an arc, such as at the back end of the cheek piece, make it a continuous flowing curve without flat spots. forward end the same.
These are things that you can work on, on your next rifle. Now take this one out and shoot it a lot...you'll enjoy it for a long time.

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #13 on:** November 06, 2016, 02:34:13 AM »

Thanks Mr. Sapergia!

No I'll take all the constructive criticism I can get. Like I said, my goal was to beat Italian factory quality which seems like a reasonable goal for a beginner. But I won't advance to the next level without the critical help.

This is good advice and I will take it into account next time!

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #14 on:** November 06, 2016, 06:49:16 AM »

Great attitude. I know I never stop learning and appreciate it when I get advice.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #15 on:** November 06, 2016, 03:01:15 PM »

Quote from: D. Taylor Sapergia on November 06, 2016, 06:49:16 AM

Great attitude. I know I never stop learning and appreciate it when I get advice.

That's my thought as well. IF anyone stops learning they may be dead from the neck up
and that IS really bad.

Bob Roller

rfd · « **Reply #16 on:** November 06, 2016, 05:08:16 PM »

as usual, too many critics that b!tch about nonsense.

looks better than good, bjj - ya done great, congrats sir!

Joe S. · « **Reply #17 on:** November 06, 2016, 05:34:39 PM »

That's a bold statement,calling out folks that really know what they are looking at and are willing to share their knowledge

Daryl · « **Reply #18 on:** November 06, 2016, 07:44:10 PM »

Quote from: rfd on November 06, 2016, 05:08:16 PM

as usual, too many critics that b!tch about nonsense.

looks better than good, bjj - ya done great, congrats sir!

I smell a Troll!

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #19 on:** November 06, 2016, 08:02:40 PM »

Quote from: rfd on November 06, 2016, 05:08:16 PM

as usual, too many critics that b!tch about nonsense.

looks better than good, bjj - ya done great, congrats sir!

Eyes and ears closed and mouth open and you learn nothing, but that's OK if that's what your goal is. Wink

The OP asked for a critique and as far as I can tell he appreciates the input. I wish this type of guidance was available 30 years ago, would have saved alot of wasted time for me. The gun is better than my early stuff and I would have been very happy to have the above results.
Taylor's advice is right on as usual, you'd think he dabbles in gun building from time to time. Wink
That particular kit has some built in problems that would be difficult to overcome. The web between barrel and ram rod was made too thick which leaves a flat sided appearance, but the OP did pretty well getting around that, looks pretty good. The other big problem is the tail of the lock sticking way up there, not much you can do about that sort of thing either. A harder piece of wood would have yielded better results as well, especially with cleaning up around the carving, again not anything you can do about that. Soft wood is a real curse.

Chowmi · « **Reply #20 on:** November 07, 2016, 02:59:11 AM »

Black Jack,
Nice rifle, much better than my first as well.
Taylor was, of course, spot on. Seems like all the TVM's I've seen have fat lock mortises.

I've looked at the pictures of your lock and barrel about 20 times and keep wondering about the rust bluing process you used. I've finally decided to comment and/or ask about it as you seem to have done a fair amount of experimenting with it.

It looks like in the pictures, you have a fairly rough finish on the lock especially, and to an extent with the barrel, even maybe some pitting. Were you going for an aged look? Reason I ask is that the rest of the gun does not have aging, and rust bluing can be done without the pitting and rough look.

I have had success with LMF browning solution and then boiling distilled water to get rust bluing, resulting in an even, smooth finish.

Again, congrats on a great first rifle, and it was ambitious to include some relief carving, an element I did not include on my first rifle.
To pile on to the other feedback, I would suggest that historically, rust bluing was likely not done on that sort of rifle at that time period. There seems to be round and round debate on what was commonly used or not used as a metal finish, and I am not an expert, but you could have left the lock and barrel in the white without anyone saying you did wrong.

Cheers,
Norm

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #21 on:** November 08, 2016, 01:35:11 AM »

Chow.

Thanks for the info. I am an on-the-job-learner thus the roughness of the barrel and lock are mistakes due to my ignorance of the time period and gun style. I didn't know this was an inappropriate metal fi ish for the time period. This was intended to be a "fantasy" gun from the get-go (I don't like that term but it gets the point across). Fantasy; because of limited budget I went with TVM and a straight barrel. Fantasy because I just like the lines of the E. Virginia & the gun was made for me to shoot & hunt with. Thus historical accuracy was sacrificed for some practicality, I like the rough finish as it doesn't glare too much so it was actually what I was aiming for. And I sacrificed historical accuracy in order to get off my butt and away from the computer (researching historical correctness) and simply get on with the project.

I really do appreciate your critique, sincerely. I am just offering my explanation from a beginners perspective. My hope is that there is another beginner that stood in the same spot as I did a few months ago. I hope my little endeavor can serve to encourage newbies. Sometimes the sheer immensity of knowlege and expertise on this forum can scare people into not trying.

Yet here I am, a beginner, with a less-than-perfect gun that I am perfectly happy with. Oh, and it shoots well too!

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #22 on:** November 08, 2016, 01:56:40 AM »

Quote from: Black Jaque Janaviac on November 08, 2016, 01:35:11 AM

Chow.

Thanks for the info. I am an on-the-job-learner thus the roughness of the barrel and lock are mistakes due to my ignorance of the time period and gun style. I didn't know this was an inappropriate metal fi ish for the time period. This was intended to be a "fantasy" gun from the get-go (I don't like that term but it gets the point across). Fantasy; because of limited budget I went with TVM and a straight barrel. Fantasy because I just like the lines of the E. Virginia & the gun was made for me to shoot & hunt with. Thus historical accuracy was sacrificed for some practicality, I like the rough finish as it doesn't glare too much so it was actually what I was aiming for. And I sacrificed historical accuracy in order to get off my butt and away from the computer (researching historical correctness) and simply get on with the project.

I really do appreciate your critique, sincerely. I am just offering my explanation from a beginners perspective. My hope is that there is another beginner that stood in the same spot as I did a few months ago. I hope my little endeavor can serve to encourage newbies. Sometimes the sheer immensity of knowlege and expertise on this forum can scare people into not trying.

Yet here I am, a beginner, with a less-than-perfect gun that I am perfectly happy with. Oh, and it shoots well too!

I'm cool with all that. Reminds me of where I was 36 years ago.

Chowmi · « **Reply #23 on:** November 08, 2016, 01:59:07 AM »

Black Jack,
Believe me, I'm barely out of the beginner stage myself, (or maybe even not!) so can completely sympathize.
I like your fantasy gun, and hope that it has encouraged you to build more.

Wait till I post pictures of my next rifle, there will be plenty to critique!

Cheers,
Norm

PPatch · « **Reply #24 on:** November 08, 2016, 02:03:48 AM »

Keep going Black Jack - and congratulations on finishing your first build! You will only get better as you become more involved in the craft. You have received some good feedback on your build and I believe all the important bases have been covered.

dave

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Author Topic: TVM nearly done (Read 10280 times)

Turtle

Mikecooper

rfd