Author Topic: Barrel Coning and Accuracy  (Read 34286 times)

Offline Frizzen

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2009, 01:39:02 AM »
Sometimes you get accuracy and precision . 10 shots 25yd pistol shot at Friendship in Sept.
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Offline Frizzen

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2009, 01:42:21 AM »
By the way, I did not shoot this, A friend Mike shot it.
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Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2009, 03:55:03 AM »
Frizzen-- Darn good shootin!! ;)   Hugh Toenjes
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Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2009, 04:03:48 AM »
northmn-- What you are saying is that -in order to be "accurate" you must first have "precision". That is the point that I've been trying to make all along. What my proofing bench does is prove  "precision" integral to the barrel being tested!   By the way I like the way you explain things using illustrations. Thanks for your input on this thread! ;)          HughToenjes
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Offline Karl Kunkel

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2009, 06:36:40 AM »
[.  As the late Frank Marshall stated about deer rifles, "you only need to hit a deer, not cockroaches at 100 yards".
[/quote]

When I was young we had a small bore target rifle team in high school.  Our range was down in the fallout shelter of the Jr High.  We used to go down in the dark, then snap on the lights and catch the roaches as they'd scurry about.  We'd staple their legs to the target back stop and use them for warm up shots.

One of the hot shot seniors stapled a roach to a target and X-ringed him with one shot.  He then hung the target with the legend "Ace Roach Exterminators".  When the visiting team arrived they pointed out a misspelling on the posted target.  For the rest of the season we were known as the "Extermators"
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Offline Dan

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2009, 02:46:22 PM »
Quote
When the visiting team arrived they pointed out a misspelling on the posted target.  For the rest of the season we were known as the "Extermators"

Ah, accurate but imprecise verbiage eh? 

Offline Dan

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2009, 03:28:27 PM »
Left handed attempts at humor aside, I dive into the conceptual side of the discussion re: crowns, accuracy and precision.  I understand the common usage of the latter terms, but as pointed out earlier and quite properly, accuracy and precision are not the same things.  They are defined terms.  I think this has been properly presented conceptually, so I add this little bit of icing to the cake for the record. 

There seems to be some debate about just what a crown is.  A muzzle crown is also a defined element of a barrel, that being the juncture of bore and air.  Shape has nothing to do with it. It is an interface.  The geometric precision of the crown has great influence on the barrel's performance and speaking strictly from a machining perspective, it is easier to produce a quality crown of 90* than any other angle.  Peter Reinhard understood that when he built the picket rifle I fiddle with these days, the build occurring in 1876.  That does not mean that coned barrels cannot deliver wee groups, but on statistical average, such barrels will probably almost certainly display greater dispersion than those unconed, all else being equal.

With that said, the subject is largely irrelevant to me for day to day shooting.  I do not shoot off a bench while hunting and I know in general terms how close I have to be to make the shot on a consistent basis, even if using a shotgun.  I would suggest that those taking their long rifles afield may find merit in the coning process, while those dedicated to cutting paper may not. 

I submit that "inaccurate" rifles can be interesting too, but a hunter necessarily needs to get closer with them.  Those of you hunting with smoothbore muskets understand that point I'm certain. It's more of a thrill to me to do that than plinking away at something in the next county.  All guns are capable of the same precision, but the question is at what range are they equal?

My .02 worth on the subject and wishes to you and yours for a peaceful Easter.

Daryl

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2009, 06:00:30 PM »
Sometimes you get accuracy and precision . 10 shots 25yd pistol shot at Friendship in Sept.


Frizzen - that is the same target I've posted a couple times here, made with the first 5 shot offhand group shot with the deep groove .45 Bauska barrel back in the 70's.

Black Hand - no one here disbelieves the targets you've posted.  Trouble is, some of the guys here who do shoot at the longer ranges, have done the same with their longrifles, or Hawkens, or English Sporting rifles, only shot off bags with a completed rifle, hand held with the gun's iron sights.  This makes the groups you have posted, while excellent groups, but nothing really special, considering the setup.

Offline Frizzen

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2009, 06:20:07 PM »
Daryl, I personaly saw the target I posted shot at Friendship in Sept. 2008. It is 10 shots,
Mike L. shot it in a match with his .36 pistol Wife saw it also.
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2009, 08:58:50 PM »
Northmn, et al., I humbly accept your definitions on the subject of precision and accuracy.  They are indeed correct.  When I, and most others, use the term "accurate", it's simply an old fashion, country way of conveying the idea of a mixture of "true"accuracy, precision, skill and luck.  To quote (allegedly) our iconic Davey Crockett: "I have the fastest horse, prettiest sister, ugliest dog and TRUEST rifle in Tennessee".  While he wasn't technically correct, his meaning was crystal clear.     
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Leatherbelly

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2009, 11:29:04 PM »
Precisely! Very accurate thread. My coned .40 shoots precisely where I point it accurately.  More precisely then I can see.

northmn

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #61 on: April 12, 2009, 03:05:03 AM »
This has been fun but I admit maybe a litle overdone.  The word sophistry comes to mind.  Waht matters is that one knows how to develop a rifle that hits where you aim it.  I like to get a good group then adjust the sights.  Talking about accuracy in some ways is meaningless unless you quantify the standards as in one, two three inchs at 100 yards, a squirrels eye at a 100 yards as some old timers state, maybe even a barn from inside.  If you are a bullseye shooter, especially a rest type shooter as in X sticks, over log or bench there is no real satisfactory group size.  A hunter or off hand shooter has to know what he wants. It is that simple.  A coned muzzle can meet a persons need for deer hunting I am sure.  I am building acouple of hunting rifles and will not cone them.  Mostly because I question the importance of "ease of loading"  For me enough said.

DP
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 03:27:01 AM by northmn »

Daryl

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #62 on: April 12, 2009, 08:04:09 AM »
I'm sorry for the misunderstanding - it is the same printed target - not the same target with holes. :-[ :-[

Offline Frizzen

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #63 on: April 12, 2009, 04:50:28 PM »
OK Daryl, I understand now. Boy my blood pressure was a going there for a while. I was
thinking you didn't think us pistol shooters could shoot targets like that. Say if you ever come
to Friendship, look us up. I'm the one with the blond. We are moving there in June. CU
                                                                                                                                       Phil
We are always on the pistol line
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Daryl

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Re: Barrel Coning and Accuracy
« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2009, 02:13:45 AM »
I'll be at Dixon's in July - looking foreward to seeing as many ALR folks as possible.

I should note - when pistol shooting here in BCBPAccociation competition, you have to be careful there are no blow-outs- holes that contain more than one ball or they'll be scored as missed.  Taylor's .60 hawken pistol with single set trigger does just that, with both of us shooting it. The event that happened in, was the last time I joined that Association. Perhaps juvenile on my part, but I don't complete in bullseye matches where the scorers don't know how to score a target.

The target you've posted would have been scored for 6 shots only with 4 misses- so 60/5X/100  I see it as a 100/9X target, going by 1/2 ball rule.  In full bore or small bore international, cutting the line counts the higher score.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 02:21:23 AM by Daryl »