Southern Rifle

[Spinner]

I am posting these for Ron Luckenbill. He will add details:

[Lucky R A]

Thank you to Eric for helping out the technologically challenged.   
     The gun in the photos has come into my shop for restoration, As with many of these projects this one comes with a lot of questions.   I am pretty familiar with many of the PA makers work, but this is a little out of my comfort zone.  I am assuming that the gun is southern made.  The present owner tells me that it came down through his family in Virginia and is accounted for to before the Civil war.   He tells me of his grandfather shooting the gun.  The gun fell into the hands of a nephews who mistreated the gun and apparently inflicted most of the damage.  At some point the gun was disassembled as was the lock.  The lock and it's parts were subsequently lost.   
      The gun appears to have been a grand gun at one point.  The barrel was shortened from the breech at some point and a new breech plug was installed.  It appears that the entry thimble had an extra long tang that extended to within 3/4" of the oval wear plate under the forearm.  There is no evidence of any type of nose cap.
There were three steel ram rod pipes that were affixed to an iron thin plate that was then placed into a shallow dovetail to secure them to the barrel.  I removed the one and there is no evidence of a barrel lug  under these plates nor is there evidence of barrel lugs forward of the fore stock termination.  This would seem to tell me that the gun was built as a half stock with a very long 45-1/2' 40 cal. barrel that is .945 across the flats from front to rear.   The trigger guard is iron two piece riveted together at the rear of the box
       I am hoping someone will recognize the patchbox and style of this iron and brass mounted rifle, and possibly direct me to others by this maker so I can correctly restore this rifle. 
Thanks so much
Ron
     

[Lucky R A]

   I forgot to mention that this rifle was built as a percussion gun with a one screw side plate/inlay.

[Dennis Glazener]

I forgot to mention that this rifle was built as a percussion gun with a one screw side plate/inlay.

Ron,
Are you assuming it was built as a percussion because of the one screw side plate? Any chance the triggers survived? How about the trigger plate mortise?
Dennis

[Lucky R A]

Dennis,
       There seems to be no evidence that the rifle was ever a full stock, thus it was likely built as a half stock.    I have the original triggers, which are single action double sets.  Although the wood is badly eroded at the top of the lock mortise I see no evidence of a cut for a flint hammer.  The lock mortise is the typical "big hole approach" to lock inletting.
        I am also curious about the small loop in front of the trigger bow, what was it's purpose?  The loop is too small to be used for a sling.   

[Karl Kunkel]

Didn't Allen Martin once post that he had found several original pieces with leather thongs attached to the trigger guard.  IIRC he theorized that they were clenched in the shooter's teeth to help stabilize the rifle when shooting offhand? Could this loop be for a similar purpose?

[Carper]

That is one great Southern rifle. Old hardware store cap locks had no half cock notch so it was not uncommon to see a small piece of wood tied to the guard that was stuck in front of the hammer so the hammer would not set on the cap  when hunting. I think some of those straps that folks think the shooter held in his teeth are really the reminants of the "half cock" strap. Obviously the small diameter of the hole in the guard in question leans toward  this.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

....Would brass pick holder under cheek rest indicate flint...?...guess could be for nipple pick, but I've never seen on original percussion rifle-gun....

[Dennis Glazener]

That is one great Southern rifle. Old hardware store cap locks had no half cock notch so it was not uncommon to see a small piece of wood tied to the guard that was stuck in front of the hammer so the hammer would not set on the cap  when hunting. I think some of those straps that folks think the shooter held in his teeth are really the reminants of the "half cock" strap. Obviously the small diameter of the hole in the guard in question leans toward  this.

Never heard this but it sure makes good sense.
Dennis

[MGillman]

Which section of Virginia did the family come from? That may help put a location in the puzzle.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I have nothing to add other than this is a very cool piece and thank you for sharing it.  I have an old front sight just like that one I found on fleabay.  I am tempted to use it on a project. 

Coryjoe

[Carper]

Yes Dennis it was not uncommon. Those old Bluegrass marked Golucher locks that were locally available in SW Va and E. Tenn most had no half cock. Maybe a good lock or certainly a modern lock like we use today would not have that problem to solve. I know there are stories ably folks clutching a strap in their teeth but I don't think what we are seeing here is that. Hunting these hills with a squirrel dog required constant walking this little arrangement made it "safer" to walk or ride with a capped rifle. When you went to full cock the little dowel like stick would just fall out of place and dangle by the little cord ready for next time.

[Dennis Glazener]

I asked Ron for photos of the triggers and he sent this one plus a couple more.


Any idea of what the slot cut in the forward TG extension might be?


Somewhere I have a photo of a set of triggers very much like these, I remember the forward rake and the TN style front trigger. It appears to be a rounded trigger. I have a flint rifle from the East TN/SW VA/western NC area that is similiar and I would suspect this rifle was made in that general area. Hope Gerald Neaves sees this rifle and comments on it.

[Hungry Horse]

 I suspect this gun was originally flint, and full stocked, given the lack of a nose cap, and the barrel length being pretty exesive for a half stock. The hogged out lock mortise could indicate the flint lock was replaced with a cheap percussion lock, by someone that was not a gunsmith. The vent pick inlay also makes me think this gun was a fine flintlock in its day. The single lock bolt might only indicate that the original lock had a forward hook, or staple to retaine the nose of the lock. The profusion of diamond patterned inlays make me think of North Carolina, but the fancy double patch box looks very Eastern Tennessee to me. Whoever made this rifle was indeed a real craftsman. The triggerguard is a beautiful piece of forging and filing.

  Hungry Horse

[Seth Isaacson]

What would have been the use for the two separate patch boxes? One box used for caps and the other for patches? Grease and patches? Both seem rather larger for a compartment for caps. It certainly seems like it would have been convenient.

[Dennis Glazener]

The single lock bolt might only indicate that the original lock had a forward hook,

Have seen several original southern flint rifles (Earl Lanning's Gillespie is one) with just 1 lock bolt but I have never seen one with a hook as you describe.

I agree about the longer barrel/half stock but sounds like Ron has looked pretty close for evidence of barrel lugs/etc.

I believe some of the Bull rifles had similiar two hinge patch boxes but I am not sure. I can't find the photo I was thinking of.

I will post photos of the triggers on this rifle in a few minutes. They look like they could have come from the Eastern TN/SW VA/Western NC area, typical Appalachian mountain triggers.

The tang looks a little Honaker'ish (is that a word!) also SW VA. Also the mention of a longer entry thimble extra long tang which also was on a few later Honaker rifle.
 

It appears that the entry thimble had an extra long tang that extended to within 3/4" of the oval wear plate under the forearm

[Dennis Glazener]

Here are the trigger photos Ron sent me along with this:

Here are some photos of the set triggers from the gun.  I do not see
where the front trigger return spring would have been attached other than
the screw that also holds the main spring.  I would guess that the return
spring would have been a long flat spring that extended from the main spring
screw to the front of the front trigger and then provided upward pressure on
the front trigger to allow it to "set." 

[Eric Kettenburg]

That is a seriously cool rifle!  

I too have a hard time believing it was originally a half stock.  Why are the diamond inlays at the muzzle, on the side flats, only half-diamonds?  Because the lower portion would be covered by the stock or nose cap…?

If iron 'plates' with rammer pipes can be dovetailed and hold, that would certainly be enough depth and strength for barrel lugs (which after all are simply holding the thin fore stock to the barrel) and the length of such plates - if I am envisioning the description correctly - would certainly overlap the length necessary for any barrel lug.  It is not very hard at all to remove evidence of many original dovetails and many - dare I say most - are much shallower than we now tend to think necessary, especially when working with a combination of dovetail filing and upsetting with a chisel.

[Dennis Glazener]

Why are the diamond inlays at the muzzle, on the side flats, only half-diamonds?  Because the lower portion would be covered by the stock or nose cap…?

 I saw that side diamond and didn't realize it was only a Half diamond, my thought was it would be too close for a nose cap. I now feel sure it was a full stock,  probably originally a flint.
 
I had an original Gillespie barrel that had last been on a Half-stock. It still had the under-rib on it. The original dovetails were filled with flat lugs and screws thru the under-rib into the flat lugs. When I knocked off the ribs you would not think the barrel was used on a half-stock.
Dennis

[Lucky R A]

      Thanks for the input on the rifle,  You have presented some pretty convincing arguments for the rifle being a full stock.  I think what convinces me most is Eric's observation relating to the diamond inlays at the front of the barrel...those half diamonds speak volumes.   When we go on suppositions that "they never did it that way" we sometimes find someone who did...The dovetails that now hold the ram rod pipes are more than an inch long, thus could easily be the original under lug dovetails filed out.  Now would the original ramrod pipes have been brass or iron?   The  two iron pipes that are on the barrel now are only a bit over an inch long and are crudely made---certainly not of the quality of the original work.
       The photos posted show the good, the ugly is that the forestock is split into two pieces back to the front of the lock mortise. The piece on the lock side is again split and the one half is completely missing.   The old girl was apparently carried "cross saddle" for many a mile as the forestock is worn through to the ramrod between the oval wear plate and the rear of the entry thimble extension.
        Thanks for the insights-much appreciated.   I hope someone can come up with a similar gun by the same hand for further reference. 
Ron

[Dennis Glazener]

Ron sent me more photos and these are of the unusual patchbox release. Now we know the purpose of the slot on the TG forward return.

I cleaned up things this morning (read removed 150 years of dried various and sundry grease and tallow concoctions) from the opening mechanism.  I think this series of photographs will give you a pretty good idea of how things worked.  I shined up the pivot nail that would be concealed by the lower (missing) side plate.  There is a channel cut for a wire clear to the front of the trigger guard.  Apparently the release slid in the slot in the front of the triggerguard.  It was likely some type of overlay decoration that slid out over the top of the stock.  This thing looks like it was designed by a bored MIT engineer.  I have a feeling that my vocabulary will increase a bit until I get everything working correctly again---but it will be one of the most interesting features of the gun.

[Lucky R A]

Also note that this gun had a false opening mechanism through the toe plate  near the butt plate.  Pushing on this false release button allowed a pointed needle to puncture your finger.   This nasty little surprise was used by several makers to discourage the unknowing from getting into someone's patchbox---an early security system....
Ron

[Dennis Glazener]

I was wondering what that spring/stud looking thing was. I just hung up from talking with Jim Webb. Before I read your post about the false needle release,  Jim described the exact same thing, he said he had heard (he didn't quite believe it) that some of the gun owners would put poison on the needle so that the person trying to open the patchbox got poisoned for fooling around with someone else's patchbox!  

I described the patchbox release on this rifle and asked Jim if he had seen any rifles in his area of South West VA with a similiar release. He hadn't but he did tell me that a friend of his has one that is similiar but the rear of the trigger guard releases the banana style box lid. Maybe this maker was from the same area and just wanted go him one better and extend it up to the front of the trigger

One other thing I noticed was the long trigger bow and the short finger rail, this is a trait you rarely see outside the Valley of VA.
Dennis

[Nordnecker]

This is very interresting to me. Thanks for posting these photos and comments. This release reminds me of an old door latch that I have. It looks like a regular thumb latch but there is no "thumber". The handle is fixed to the door and the escution plate behind it slides up to unlatch the door. So, the little chain links went all the way to the front of the trigger guard? And they connected the release mechanism to a slide of some sort at the front of the trigger guard? I see the "needle" in the false release button. I guess it's stationary and the button moves down exposing the point, Eh? Most intriguing.

[DBoone]

Totally cool rifle!  Awesome in every way.  Thanks for sharing this.