Author Topic: Blank work  (Read 11960 times)

Uncle Alvah

  • Guest
Blank work
« on: November 17, 2016, 11:26:04 PM »
I have purchased an ash stock blank from a member here, should be here in a few days. I intend to send it off to have the barrel channel cut and ramrod hole drilled. i'm brand new to this so I'm wondering if there is any prep work or layout or whatever I need to do before sending it off for the work, or if it is essentially ready for the inletting/drilling work as it is?

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4102
  • Dane Lund
Re: Blank work
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2016, 11:51:44 PM »
Yeah,  you need to lay out your complete shape on the blank, so your barrel inlet guy knows exactly where to put the barrel and ramrod hole, also thickness of your web.  (Between barrel and ramrod)
You've got to make these decisions based on the particular gun you're building.  Your inletting guy has no clue of what you're building.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
Re: Blank work
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2016, 12:59:49 AM »
So you went with ash after all. I believe you stated you were intending a Lancaster style .36 caliber gun. Have you drawn it to scale on paper, or do you have full sized plans? Those will really help you to understand the gun and you can transfer the stock outline and indicate barrel and ramrod hole placement for the fellow doing the work for you.

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Uncle Alvah

  • Guest
Re: Blank work
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2016, 02:12:06 AM »
In the end, I decided to go with a Tennessee Mountain rifle. I have the full size plans on order, should be here tomorrow or next day.
I decided to go with an ash stock even against the advice of more experienced folks mostly because ash is what I really wanted and, at 63, its unlikely I'll ever build another. I may end up regretting the ash decision, but I sure hope not!

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
Re: Blank work
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2016, 03:10:31 AM »
Ash is a very beautiful wood and makes a strong gun stock



Good luck with your build. Your chisels should be razor sharp. When you feel the tool resisting slicing give it a stropping to restore its edge and go back at it. Remember that the ash alternates harder and softer grain, when cutting always pay attention to the direction of the grain.

dave
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 03:11:43 AM by PPatch »
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline David Rase

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4311
  • If we need it here, make it here. Charlie Daniels
Re: Blank work
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2016, 03:14:59 AM »
When I inlet a barrel in a blank I ask my clients to draw top and side barrel centerlines, a line for the breech location and a line where they want the ramrod hole to start.  I then ask them to write down the ramrod web thickness and ramrod diameter on the stock blank somewhere.  That is all there is to it.  

David

If a client has a narrow piece of wood, I can skew the barrel layout to compensate for cast off.

Offline Stoner creek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2889
Re: Blank work
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2016, 04:25:55 AM »
You're getting a blank that is plenty enough wide for any gun from that era. Just be sure that you strike the center line giving you enough room for the widest dimension of your butt plate then add any cast off that you need. Ash IMHO is easier to work than a lot of this soft maple floating around out there. Just read the grain and avoid bucking it!! I agree with the previous post regarding sharp chisels.
Stop Marxism in America

Offline Chris in Washington

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 87
Re: Blank work
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2016, 07:14:04 AM »
I'll agree with Dave, Ash does make for a beautiful rifle.  Good luck with your build.  

« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 07:15:20 AM by Chris in Washington »
Chris Statz

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Blank work
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2016, 04:18:55 PM »
In the end, I decided to go with a Tennessee Mountain rifle. I have the full size plans on order, should be here tomorrow or next day.
I decided to go with an ash stock even against the advice of more experienced folks mostly because ash is what I really wanted and, at 63, its unlikely I'll ever build another. I may end up regretting the ash decision, but I sure hope not!
Unless you use exactly the same parts as the plans were drawn with the plan will be useless. Draw out your own full sized plan with the parts you're actually going to use., I do with every gun I build.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 04:00:12 AM by Ky-Flinter »
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Uncle Alvah

  • Guest
Re: Blank work
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2016, 07:55:49 PM »
Quote
Unless you use exactly the same parts


Seeing as how I have no experience with building, I figured it would be wise to stick right to the listed parts at TOW for that rifle. I have to buy parts piecemeal, but that is how I selected the sights and barrel lugs I have ordered.

Offline Eric Krewson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2240
Re: Blank work
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2016, 02:09:12 AM »
Back when Fed Miller was inletting barrels and drilling ramrod holes I would buy a stock blank from Dunlap and have it shipped directly to Fred with a note on what I intended to build. The blanks came back with the side profile rough shaped giving me plenty of room for my final layout.

The only problem I had was when one blank I sent wasn't completely seasoned(unknown to me) and the wood shrunk after I got it back in my shop.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 02:09:49 AM by Eric Krewson »

Uncle Alvah

  • Guest
Re: Blank work
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2016, 04:18:00 PM »
Well the blank came yesterday.
Stoner Creek certainly did me solid on this ash wood, its beautiful!
No luck at "smuggling it past customs" however, my wife happened to be standing on the steps when  the Brown Truck of Happiness pulled in. The interrogation was, thankfully, brief and I was allowed to enter afterwards!

As regards marking an accurate centerline on this, is a scribe line the best way to go as opposed to a thin pencil or whatever?

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
Re: Blank work
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2016, 04:48:51 PM »
Alvah I usually make a scribed line although pencil will work, or even a thin tipped marker.

While the stock is away being worked on you need to remove that breech plug, check that it is properly fit and polish the face of the plug. Try and not mar the upper surface of the tang when you remove the plug. There is a witness mark on the bottom flat of the barrel and tang, when you replace the plug be sure to align the mark just the way it was before you removed the plug.



Also; there is considerable work to be done on the metal parts, the castings. Those need to be filed and taken to whatever you decide is the final finish. Go lightly with the file at first until you discover what is beneath the gray scale, the point being not to add to the work by scoring the metal with the file.

dave
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 02:51:41 AM by Ky-Flinter »
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3699
Re: Blank work
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2016, 05:27:20 PM »
To follow up what Dave said, the markings on the barrel are (usually) on the bottom, and need to remain there.  Hopefully your breechplug is installed so the barrel markings are at the bottom with the witness marks aligned. 

The barrels are marked so that runout, if any, is oriented up and down versus right and left. 

Runout is the relative relation of the bore to the outside.  Few barrels get bored absolutely perfectly centered down the barrel as related to the outside.  In other words, the hole starts centered on one end, but ends up slightly off on the other end.

Good barrel makers always check for runout, and mark the barrel so the eccentricity is either up or down.

Why does it matter?  If the runout is to the side, the barrel will shoot way left or right with the sights centered on the barrel.  The only way to sight-in results in the sights hanging way off the barrel.  Yuck. 

If the runout is up and down, no big deal.  Sights have to get filed to sight-in anyway. 

Getting the rifled finished, shooting it, and finding out it shoots a foot and a half left at 50 yards is a miserable feeling.  Don't go there. 

You can take your calipers and verify that the runout is oriented correctly by measuring from the bore to the flat on each face, on each end.  There may be no runout, but it is worth checking.  Takes only a couple of minutes. 

The book The Gunsmith of Grenville County by Peter Alexander recommends checking the runout first.  I am sure that is due to bad experience somewhere in the past.  It is a useful book for step by step rifle building.

I hope this helps in some way.  I wish you a Happy Thanksgiving.  I am thankful for much on this end!   Marc

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3699
Re: Blank work
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2016, 05:30:49 PM »
One other thing.  Before sending that blank and barrel, make sure it is packed well.  I'd tape that barrel solidly to the blank with nothing hanging off the blank end. 

Why?  Apparently barrels can and do occasionally get bent in the mail.  I'd say that is mainly for thin, swamped barrels, but my rifle maker and gun maker can both attest to the unhappiness of having a barrel get bent in the mail.  An ounce of prevention.....

Best wishes,  Marc

Uncle Alvah

  • Guest
Re: Blank work
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2016, 06:38:18 PM »
Quote
An ounce of prevention.....

Point taken!

Offline bama

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2163
    • Calvary Longrifles
Re: Blank work
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2016, 06:54:29 PM »
I would ship the barrel seperate from the blank. If you had the barrel shipped to you use the tube it came in to the whoever is going to do the inletting.
Jim Parker

"An Honest Man is worth his weight in Gold"

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4339
Re: Blank work
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2016, 08:27:37 PM »

While the stock is away being worked on you need to remove that breech plug, check that it is properly fit and polish the face of the plug.
dave

But unless you know exactly what you're looking for, there's not much point in removing the breech plug in the first place. If it's from one of the better known barrel makers, there's little chance it will be fitted improperly.
John
John Robbins

Uncle Alvah

  • Guest
Re: Blank work
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2016, 11:35:38 PM »
The barrel is indexed on the bottom. It is a Colerain that TOW sold with the breech plug fitted, I inquired specifically as to whether the plug was fitted or simply provided when I placed the order. I do not know if Colerain or TOW actrually fitted it, however.

Offline Eric Krewson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2240
Re: Blank work
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2016, 02:35:37 AM »
Colerain doesn't properly fit their plugs in my experience. The last Colerain barrel I used, with a factory fitted plug, the plug wasn't making any contact with breech face.

Rice barrel plugs are fitted correctly.

Offline Ky-Flinter

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7462
  • Born in Kentucke, just 250 years late
Re: Blank work
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2016, 02:55:15 AM »
...... there's not much point in removing the breech plug in the first place. If it's from one of the better known barrel makers, there's little chance it will be fitted improperly.
John

You would be surprised.

-Ron
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1663
Re: Blank work
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2016, 02:55:59 AM »
You need to get comfortable removing and replacing the breechplug so go ahead and do it. You will find it much easier to accurately fit both the breech of the barrel and then the tang if you remove the plug for fitting the barrel.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline sqrldog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 986
Re: Blank work
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2016, 03:58:37 AM »
This really isn't a difficult process.  I usually check the breech plug fit just for my piece of mind. Usually done right but have on occassion moved it one barrel flat to get a better fit between end of plug and barrel.  Send the wood to the person doing the barrel inlet and send the barrel with or without the tang makes no difference.  The tang is removed in the inletting process anyway. Guys that do this routinely know what they are doing and will do it correctly. They need to know ramrod size and length of forearm to rr entry hole.Let them know right or lefthand, cast off or not and they'll do the rest. Pick the one you like and give a call if you have questions.Tim

Uncle Alvah

  • Guest
Re: Blank work
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2016, 06:35:02 AM »
What is the preferred tool for removing the plug? Well fitted adjustable wrencg?

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
Re: Blank work
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2016, 05:00:21 PM »
What is the preferred tool for removing the plug? Well fitted adjustable wrench?

That will work, you may need a length of pipe to provide more leverage.

First though, why do this? You are doing it to assure yourself that the fellow who fitted the plug did a proper job, a breech plug that isn't properly mated will allow super hot gases to escape past the plug face, cut the threads and cause corrosive powder residue to degrade the plug over time - thus creating unsafe condition. I, like the majority here, check all plugs, always. Once I've fired a few hundred shots in a gun I remove plugs and check them once again.

The plug will be tightly fitted, as it should be, you may need to use a mallet to persuade the plug to break free and unscrew (counter clockwise) . You will want to clamp the breech end of the barrel firmly in a machinist style vice, use something to protect the barrel from the vice jaws - I make the protectors out of flattened copper pipe, use tape to hold the copper in the vice. You might also want bend a length of flattened copper tubing on the breech plug, bend it in a U shape. Keep the wrench jaws below the top surface of the plug so you don't mar it. In case you are interested; Jason at Rice barrels sells a plug wrench and octagon shaped barrel protectors that work wonderfully.

Once out check for (god forbid) cross-threading or any galling on the threads, they should look factory new. It is important that the face of the breech plug mates to the inner "ledge" or shoulder of the barrel (there is a name for that but it escapes me at the moment - you'll see it). For this I use Dykem Hy-Spot Blue (get a small tube, although it is more expensive than a can - the tube will last a very long time if stored cap down). You don't want the Dykem "layout fluid" for this job. Permatex Prussian Blue is sold for this purpose also but I find that in use the Dykem is easier to see. You will also want to coat the breech plug threads with thin coat of antiseize compound before reinstalling it, it does not take very much compound and be sure to wipe any excess off the outer surface of the plug and barrel.

Using a small inexpensive brush to paint a thin coat of the blue around the outer diameter of the plug face and run it back in until it is firm but not fully seated to the witness mark, unscrew it and check that the blue gunk transferred to the inner surface of the barrel evenly (it is easier to see on the plug face). Satisfy yourself that the two surfaces mate. Cleanup is with WD-40.

This is a good time to polish the face of the breech plug, doing so makes future cleanup easier after shooting as the powder residue will remove more readily form a polished surface. I polish mine to a mirror finish. For inletting send the barrel off without the plug installed. When you receive the barrel and stock back you'll want to draw file the barrel and take it to whatever degree of finish you intend.

Hope that helps, If I've missed anything surely someone will chime in.

dave

« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 07:55:13 PM by PPatch »
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?