Need help with wire inlay design. New pictures, finished wire inlay.

[Rolf]

I've been working on a "fantasie" rifle. It's not really a copy of anything.  Wanted to make a rifle thats comfortable to shoot and looks good. Been trying to Draw a good wire inlay design. Something does not look right. The design on the buttstock looks "noisy"? ""unbalanced? Looking for critics and advice. I would also like to use different thicknesses of wire to get more life in the design. What sizes would you recommend on the different tendrils?


The design moves as a singel thread around the cheek piece and over to the lower forestock.




I 'd thought to leave the rest of the rifle "thread bare". I tried to Draw designs on the upper forestock and the other side of the buttstock, but it just looke crowed.
Any suggestions?





Best regards
Rolf

[smart dog]

Hi Rolf,
I'll be traveling today but will think about your design and get back to you.  With respect to different thicknesses of wire, instead simply lay multiple strands side by side and feather the ends to merge together and look like the wire is thickening.  I experimented with thicker wire and a problem I ran into was the heavy wire was more difficult to bend smoothly and tended to pull out.  I found you had to cut deeper lines and use wider wire ribbon as the wire got thicker.  Placing wire side by side eliminates those problems.

dave

[David Rase]

Rolf,
You say your design looks too noisy.  I agree.  When I look at it I think it is too busy.  For example, when I follow the single strand of wire down the front and under your cheek piece I see too many tendrils coming off of the single strand.  I would get rid of the strand with the "loop" located at the 7 o'clock position.  Also, the lower strand that crosses up over the other lower strand has a very unnatural bend and awkward connection point to the main strand.
On the wrist design, the "C" scroll and "loop" looks like it was an after thought and distracts from the rest of the design.  I think that strand should travel rearward to better balance out the area you are trying to fill.
Hope my words are somewhat understandable. 
David   

[bama]

Rolf overall it is a pleasing design but I think that there are a couple of things you should consider. You have a vine scroll that grows in opposite directions from each other from the same vine. In engraving we consider this a no no. While you have nice scrolls they should originate from a starting point and all grow from that point.

I think that your design starting point should be at the breech and grow from there with a possible split at the nose of the comb with a little scroll flowing off to the patch box side of the butt then continue the main scroll over the wrist and into the scrolls that you have on the cheek side of the butt stock.

The only other thing I see that is a little distracting is the little vine that come out of the cheek rest that is seperate from the main scroll. I think you will find that if you bring this little vine off of the main scroll it will be more pleasing to your eye.

You also have a long vine with nothing on it after in crosses over the wrist down to where you scroll vines start behind the cheek rest. To me this is not very attractive. If you want to keep this in your design I would put some little scrolls along its length to break up this long line. Or stop the vine just after it crosses over the wrist and then restart it somewhere along the bottom of the cheek rest closer to where your vine scrolls are now. That way you would not have that long vine with nothing on it.

Nice job on the rifle so far and I am sure that what ever you do with the wire it will look great.

Jim

[jerrywh]

 As an engraver I know from experience that all artists struggle with scroll design.  The very best in the world will tell you the same thing.  There are only two pieces of advise I can give you on your design. I would not go under the cheek piece with that long wire and over the wrist. Do not use wire that is too thick. Too thick is .010  use  .008. or .005.    .008 is OK for American long rifles but still too thick for European guns.  I would not draw on the gun until I had figured out a good design on paper for each panel. A single wire going over the wrist does nothing by itself.
   When we look at a design we seem to know if it looks good or not but seldom ask ourselves why it doesn't look good.  Study your design and ask yourself why it doesn't look good. If it is tangled untangle it. One good tip I learned from one of the worlds best is to look at the spaces between the design. The spaces should be about even in area.  Never draw a design and execute it the same day.
 Your eyes and your mind will deceive you. Look at it a day or so later and then you will be able to see the defects much better.  Good designs require a lot of work and time.

[Tom Currie]

I think Jerry makes a good point when he mentions the design being tangled which it sort of looks like to me.

My observation is to look at the 3 scrolls starting out under the cheekpiece and going upward toward the heel of the butt plate. Typically scrolls start sort of parallel with the space increasing between them and then maybe the scrolls ends ( volutes ) overlapping in the design. In your design the outside scroll lines cross the center line at an close point that makes them look at bit tangled to me.

Maybe making the right most scroll line end near the heel and the center scroll end underneath it effectively untangling the top left scroll lines.

Wish I could post a picture but am picture challenged at the moment.





 

[rich pierce]

I would go with a crude wire inlay elk or moose. Looks like a Hawken to me. Or pick a design often engraved on British sporting rifle locks or side plates. Just my preference. Your cool rifle!

[jerrywh]

 Here is another tip on checking your design. Look at it in the mirror.  When it is reversed your eyes and mind  can usually see the defects better.

[Marcruger]

Yes, I believe it is simply too busy. Less is more in my eye for longrifles.  An example is Jim Kibler's kit rifle.....gorgeous without ornamentation.  Lots of "bling" requires a talented eye to plan.  Best wishes,   Marc

[Joe S.]

I would go with a crude wire inlay elk or moose. Looks like a Hawken to me. Or pick a design often engraved on British sporting rifle locks or side plates. Just my preference. Your cool rifle!

While it's your rifle and you should do what makes you happy I'm in agreement with Rich.Getting to artsyfartsy on hawken type rifles kinda takes away from what they where all about in the first place IMHO.No offence intended but I always considered hawken rifles to be a work horse type and not really adorned with all the bells and whistles.If you must, keep it simple,basic and as Rich said you can't go wrong with big game animals,ect.

[smart dog]

Hi Rolf,
I love wire inlay but it is best as a highlight to something with mass. That mass can be carving, an inlay, or converging wire to create a mass.  Perhaps consider adding several small inlays or points where wires come together.  One very simple change I would make is break up the long wire under the cheek piece.  For example, end the wire near the beginning of the cheek piece, then insert 2 or 3 silver dots, then a space then 2 or 3 more dots, and then start the wire going to the design behind the cheek piece.  Just a thought.

dave 

[Ed Wenger]

Rolf,

I think Jerry gave you some very good advice....  I wouldn't do the long wire under the cheek piece and over the wrist either, and I agree with David R. about the lower wire with the unnatural bend.  Other than that, I don't think it looks all that bad.  I'd play around with a scroll(s) under the cheek with everything eminenting from there.  If it's an American piece, I'd recommend .008 wire and "blend" tendrils from the main stem.  If it's a European piece, I'd use .005 wire and "stack" the pieces, having the main stem split, creating the tendrils.

Wire design is challenging, but I think you have a pretty good start.  I'd also highly recommend drawing on paper, as Jerry suggested, and transfer the image onto the stock when your happy with the design. 


           Ed

[Rolf]

Thank you all for your advice. I'll draw the next versions on paper. I've tried to untangle the design behind the cheek piece. Still does not look quite rigth. I think it might have do with the bear spot I've marked with an x. Also something with the branching of the tendrils look strange. To symetrical? I split the long wire under the cheek piece  with groups of silver dots. Three dots in each group(1/32"+ 1/16"+1/32"). Looks alot better, but I think the dots at the tang need something more, to mark it as a transition over to the other side of the rifle. Welcome suggestions and advice.
 



I've untangled the design on the other side of the rifle and tried to keep the loops in the design. I've allways admired the in other makers designs. I think they add depth and life the design. But again, something does not look rigth. Welcome suggestions and advice.


Best regards
Rolf

[smart dog]

Hi Rolf,
I think it looks better.  All of your scrolls go in the same direction.  Perhaps have a few go opposite or end some of the wire with no scroll, just let it end in a shallow sine wave.

dave

[oldtravler61]

Rolf  First I am no wire engraver. But I am an artist. On the area behind the lock I would drop the loops on the bottom line. Take this only as an artistic opion.  But above all else it is your gun.  Oldtravler

[L. Akers]

Your scrolls are all the same size with the same amount of volute.  Try some larger and some smaller--mix it up.  All the scrolls also are in a verticle line at the buttplate which, coupled with the tendrils under the cheekpiece, makes the design flat and uninteresting.  Try varying locations in addition to size for the scrolls and perhaps fill in some of the tendrils with a bit of foliage

[PPatch]

Rolf;

Adding the breaks with the dots helped, your design is better for it.

Wrist area -off check side; the three loops: the design might benefit if the middle loop were slightly larger than the two others.



Cheek side; I believe having four volutes behind the cheek piece is one of the visual elements not working for you, also, that top volute is curled outward away from the cheek which tends to lead the eye away form the rifle, I'd reverse it and try it curled forward toward the muzzle. Four is an even number, and generally speaking even numbers do not work in artsy stuff like this. Three volutes would likely work better, five perhaps, even seven if the overall design were diversified with different endings instead of all volutes. Think of incorporating some "leaf" elements to replace volutes if you go to five or more. Example of leaf "elements"



You could also end lines with more of the tapering dots, perhaps forming a volute or two.

Hope that helps, or at least breaks up the brainlock.

dave

[Dave B]

Rolf, some great advice given. I have only a couple suggestions that may be helpful.  You need to make the elements flow not only in symmetry but also in spacing. you can improve the look by giving the illusion of three dimensions.  Have modified your drawing for some of what I am talking about. the removal of the scroll elements to bring back some  flow  to the design. I was not able to  stagger the loops of the vine that loops over the long volute. Note that removing the lines  at the three intervals gives the impression of passing behind the center element. I personally like using tendrils off a leaf feature to end a looping vine.

[Dave B]

This was from along time ago but shows the idea of the layout so you get the feeling the one element is over laying the other just by leaving out a section of wire in the key spots

[Rolf]

I'd like to thank everyone for their input and advice. Posting Pictures of the finished wire inlay. I used 0.005" pure silver wire.  Reasonably happy With the results. The design behind the cheek piece is lacking something, but this was the best I could come up With. In generell, a bit to many small kinks in the wire. Need more practice. I've used 8 coats of vinegaroon on the Stock. The Pictures are taken With a flash, which washes out the color. The Stock is a darker bronze color.

Best regards
Rolf

[bama]

Nicely done job of wire inlaying Rolf, it looks great.

[PPatch]

A very nice job IMO Rolf. That is going to be a good looking rifle, do post pictures when it is finished.

dave

[Ky-Flinter]

I like it!

-Ron

[Marcruger]

Nice inlay, and it came out nicer than the drawing.  Well done. 

[Ed Wenger]

I think it turned out nicely too.  You certainly have the concept down.  Wire work design is always a challenge for me.  I tend to agree there's something just a little lacking, and think it might have something to do with the four long strands under the cheek.  Maybe just a couple tendrils coming off those to break up the long lines?  At any rate, nicely done!  Also, you can "move" wire around a little before you do the final filing to remove flat spots & kinks.  A piece of 1/16" piano wire or similar, set in a wood dowl does well for this.  Thanks for posting, and again, nicely done!


        Ed