Author Topic: R.E.A.L. vs PRB (Read 19702 times)

bones92 · « **on:** November 28, 2016, 06:23:39 PM »

Will a 250 grain Lee R.E.A.L. .50 caliber bullet perform well enough in a barrel designed for PRB?

Would I need to use a bit stouter charge to get sufficient MV in order to impart a spin fast enough to stabilize?

If anyone has used the Lee R.E.A.L. bullets, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #1 on:** November 28, 2016, 06:49:23 PM »

I have never shot the REAL bullet so cant comment on its performance but I question its ability to seal in deeper grove barrels such as round grove rifled barrels.

hanshi · « **Reply #2 on:** November 28, 2016, 07:18:57 PM »

I think smylee grouch has a valid point. Although I've never tried a REAL bullet, I did shoot a couple targets with a .54 "Mississippi" rifle (.006" or either .008) with the maxi hunter; and while it did group under 4" at 60 yards, prb fired from the rifle averaged just over an inch. When .50 maxi was tried in a .50 flintlock (.010") groups, again were deer killing size at 60 yards. But prb would do one hole at that distance.

Your results might be better but not very likely. I've never hunted with maxis or REAL bullets and never experimented with them after that one time. Prb will take any game the caliber is suited for. I've NEVER had a prb failure even with a .45.

bones92 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 28, 2016, 07:23:06 PM »

True, and the REAL bullet would seem to be a better fit with a shallow-groove rifle. But it would be fun to experiment with it... Maybe a better fit in one of my Italian reproductions.

I am sure the PRB will do what I need it to do. I just think it would be fun to learn first-hand a bit about bullet variations.

Of course, it would help if actually had the tools to melt and cast lead...

Standing Bear · « **Reply #4 on:** November 28, 2016, 09:08:56 PM »

Agree a REAL or Maxi etc probably won't seal in a .010-.012 groove barrel.

Help me a little here, Bones. What do you need done that a .50 PRB won't do?
TC

smylee grouch · « **Reply #5 on:** November 28, 2016, 09:39:36 PM »

Good point Standing Bear, the patched lead round ball is under-rated as a game bullet. I'm not suggesting it's as good as a bullet but it has done the job for over 200 years and placement is key regardless of which style projectile you use.

bones92 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 28, 2016, 10:04:35 PM »

I was contemplating a mould for the .50 REAL, but it turns out to be a moot point.

But it does bring up a good question... does the PRB offer sufficient power downrange on deer? I took a .50 caliber flinter into the woods this past weekend, and despite not seeing any deer, I wonder how the old .490 lead ball will do on deer. I had 60 gr of GOEX FFFg behind it.

I am not questioning PRB by any means, but I am a bit curious as to how it performs on deer, as I have never seen the effects first-hand.

Daryl · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2016, 10:08:43 PM »

I tried R.E.A.L. bullets, both 200gr. and 220gr. in my 60" twist, 42" GM barrel on a flintlock rifle. I used Lyman BP Gold for lube and found I could shoot continually without any fouling problems. The bullets engraved quite nicely when loading, on 2 of the bullet's 'bands'. I used a short starter, but likely because it is automatic to my loading regime. I think perhaps choking up on the rod until the bullet was started, might have allowed loading without the starter.

Accuracy wise, they shot about 2" at 50 yards off the bags. This was when patched round balls were giving me sub-1/2" groups at the same range. I used the same loads I was using with patched round balls. 75gr. 3F and 85gr. 2F. The fouling did not build up and I easily loaded a web-patched round ball afterwards- no wiping was necessary.

Years ago, we found the Maxi-balls lost stability on impact when used on Moose. You could not trust a Maxiball to travel in a straight line through the moose- Straight line penetration was not possible, it seemed. Perhaps they would work fine on deer, but in my opinion, they are not only the worse shape as they seemed to collapse into their grooves instead of expanding, but could not be trusted to penetrate in a straight line - which MUST happen. Hitting one of those 3/8" thick ribs would turn them 90 degrees in any direction and a perfect broadside shot wouldn't even go through one lung, let alone both as planned.

I only bring this up to show what the Maxiball did in a 48" twist. They usually gave pretty good accuracy- on paper. On moose they were a total failure.

I was afraid the R,E.A.L. bullets might do the same, especially from the 60" twist on the GM barrel. Would they work on deer- maybe, but then, so would a patched round ball. .44 to .48 calibre Longrifles were very popular in the ML period for a reason - they worked & with round balls.

Daryl · « **Reply #8 on:** November 28, 2016, 10:16:51 PM »

Quote from: bones92 on November 28, 2016, 10:04:35 PM

I was contemplating a mould for the .50 REAL, but it turns out to be a moot point.

But it does bring up a good question... does the PRB offer sufficient power downrange on deer? I took a .50 caliber flinter into the woods this past weekend, and despite not seeing any deer, I wonder how the old .490 lead ball will do on deer. I had 60 gr of GOEX FFFg behind it.

I am not questioning PRB by any means, but I am a bit curious as to how it performs on deer, as I have never seen the effects first-hand.

Within close range, say out to 60 yards or so, your 60gr. charge would likely do just fine - maybe out to 75 or even 80 yards - IF it is accurate enough. I've never had a .50 or .45 or even .40 cal rifle for that matter that would shoot well with such a light charge when using a greased or oiled patch. When using an oiled patch in my .40, I had to use 75gr. 3F GOEX to get the same accuracy as 65gr. 3F gave me with water based lube.

I found grease or oil for lube MADE me use 10gr. MORE 3F than would shoot well with a water-based lube. Using, per se, 75gr. to 85gr. 3F, which would be a decent hunting load in a .50 with a patched round ball, would increase breech pressure to the point that you would need a VERY tight combination to shoot well(not burn the patch up).

In the long barrel I have now, I use 2F in my .50 - actually I've used 2F in .50 cal since the mid 1970's as I found it more ACCURATE and fouled LESS than 3F of that time. Thus today, I still use 2F in .50 cal and had developed 2F loads for my .40 and .45 cal rifles as well. 2F in them shoots just as well as 3F, but it takes 10gr. MORE powder to do it- to match velocity and accuracy.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #9 on:** November 28, 2016, 11:24:48 PM »

Here's a nice bull moose shot by an acquaintance of mine from Australia. He had a guided hunt in my back yard, and used a T/C "Hawken" rifle and the R.E.A.L. bullet in .50 calibre. His load was 140 gr. FFg GOEX and a REAL bullet at 30 yards. He found the bullet on the opposite side under the skin - complete penetration of both lungs but no exit. Perfect! In training for the hunt, he could keep all his bullets in 5" at 100 yards from the bench, and he considered this adequate hunting accuracy. In this case, he was right.

And here's the bullet, before and after shots.

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #10 on:** November 28, 2016, 11:56:42 PM »

The TC Hawken is a shallow groove barrel which is why the REAL worked in it.

For a deep groove barrel i'd stick with the PRB. $#*!, i'd stick with it anyway.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #11 on:** November 29, 2016, 12:26:48 AM »

Taylor, did they weigh the bullet and measure it's diameter after it was recovered. Just curious.

bones92 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 29, 2016, 01:18:02 AM »

Taylor, thanks for posting that... and good heavens that's a large moose!

Standing Bear · « **Reply #13 on:** November 29, 2016, 03:24:05 AM »

During a Texas ML only doe and spike season I took a small spike at 95 yards w a Dixie Poor Boy .50 flintlock. Load was a .495 RB, .018 patch lined w mink oil over 90 gr FFg ignited w 4F. Shot from a solid rest DRT (dead right there). Haven't used a conical since '76.
TC

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #14 on:** November 29, 2016, 04:40:45 AM »

I don't have that data. But that slug looks to be about 3/4" across now. The hunter thought that the bullet had not lost much weight. In any event, it worked. I agree that the REAL bullet would prefer shallow "buttoned" rifling, like the T/C rifles. But I have a friend who has shot several mule deer here in northern BC with a .45 cal longrifle (of my make) and the REAL bullet appropriate for that calibre. They have all been one shot kills without any tracking required. If you use enough powder and a pure lead slug, it may slug up enough to do a good job.
I still prefer a patched round ball as well.

bones92 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 30, 2016, 05:30:11 PM »

In the end, I did not end up buying the REAL mould, so it's a bit of a moot point for now. But I have learned quite a bit. If anything, it erased some of the bias I had against PRB as a hunting round.

Do any of you have photos of round ball that has been used to take big game? I'm curious to see what the ball looks like. I would assume it flattens out somewhat.

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #16 on:** November 30, 2016, 05:41:18 PM »

Yes, pure lead bullets expand and flatten. It's what they do. It makes a bigger hole. It doesn't matter if it's in the shape of a ball, or conical. Lead expands. It's not a bad thing.

I use a PRB for elk. I have in the past and will again next year. I use a .54. Sorry, but no pictures. It's not my goal when I go hunting to take pictures.

bones92 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 30, 2016, 05:58:51 PM »

OldMtnMan, I'll take your word for it. If you've used PRB on elk, and plan to do so again, I'd say that speaks volumes.

Standing Bear · « **Reply #18 on:** November 30, 2016, 06:03:45 PM »

No .50 or .54 RBs recovered. Did recover a .403 ball that expanded to .611 (IIRC it was >35 years ago) at its widest point. Retained weight was 93 gr. Kinda looked like a nickel.
TC

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #19 on:** November 30, 2016, 06:13:31 PM »

Quote from: bones92 on November 30, 2016, 05:58:51 PM

OldMtnMan, I'll take your word for it. If you've used PRB on elk, and plan to do so again, I'd say that speaks volumes.

The PRB gets a lot of flak that it doesn't deserve. A hole through both lungs is a dead animal. I've always been careful to just take double lung shots, so I might have better success than someone who takes chancy shots. I think anybody who uses a muzzleloader should accept it's limitations and not try to turn it into a 30-06.

Used correctly the PRB is a fine killer.

Toby Bridges is constantly talking about how inferior the PRB is. I guess he has a short memory. Here's a picture of him in 1983 taking a 500lb bear with a .50 PRB.

WadePatton · « **Reply #20 on:** November 30, 2016, 06:37:02 PM »

Quote from: bones92 on November 30, 2016, 05:30:11 PM

...
Do any of you have photos of round ball that has been used to take big game? I'm curious to see what the ball looks like. I would assume it flattens out somewhat.

The first two deer punched with my 54 retained the ball. I have mine (I didn't shoot the second buck) and will get you a pic up in a few minutes, heck I'll weigh it too.

But the biggest blood trail I've seen this year came when a .40 caliber PRB blew right through a doe. That I did not expect.

I have the numbers ready:

220.68 as cast and nipped (Tanner mould)
209.88 recovered ball for 95% retention.

Shot was 17 yards, quartering away through ribs on left, lungs, through right shoulder, stopped under hide of 200# buck of 4 or 5 years age.

pics as requested:

smylee grouch · « **Reply #21 on:** November 30, 2016, 07:41:38 PM »

I have been using a 58 cal. for the last 20 or so years and if I don't get pass through and find the ball, it's usualy about an inch in dia. .973 on the last one recovered from a 340# bear.Most times they weigh with in one or two grains of an unfired one.

bones92 · « **Reply #22 on:** November 30, 2016, 08:14:20 PM »

Wade, thanks for posting. Very helpful. I can only imagine the buck felt like it was hit with a garbage truck. Did the buck yell out "OOOF!!!"

I plan to use a .50 or .45 on the whitetail in NC, which don't get terribly big, anyway. I figured on a heart shot, but perhaps holding a bit higher up for a lung shot is a better play.

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #23 on:** November 30, 2016, 08:51:39 PM »

Yep! A hole in both lungs will fill your freezer.

WadePatton · « **Reply #24 on:** November 30, 2016, 08:53:34 PM »

As much as I "enjoy" recovering the ball from those first two, there was a third buck (this year at 60) that also held the ball but didn't fall. I tracked him for hours, but he didn't leave much blood. Can't be sure what happened with that one. Very disappointing, but a fact of hunting.

And I'll be shooting more for lung than heart from now on. For sure. Liver shot puts em down quick too, but that's awful gutsy.

News:

Author Topic: R.E.A.L. vs PRB (Read 19702 times)