Author Topic: R.E.A.L. vs PRB  (Read 19705 times)

Offline bones92

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2016, 09:16:52 PM »
Anyone ever try an upper neck shot on deer at close range?  You basically make a killing shot (spine or jugular), or a clean miss!  I did that once with a scoped rifle (about 15 yards), and she dropped in her tracks.

If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2016, 09:32:00 PM »
No, and I wouldn't.

Offline Daryl

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2016, 10:23:02 PM »
Back in about 1976, I hunted deer with my new bride up in the Squamish Valley, BC. She was packing her little .36 Seneca, loaded with 128gr. Maxi-Balls & 60gr. 3F, while I had my deep (.028") grooved Bauska .45 (.448" bore) on a modified TC stock loaded with 85gr. 2F & a patched round ball.(.457" ball and .022" patch - yeah - tight)

I shot a nice little buck on a trail in an old logging slash. He was facing me, so I smacked in the neck - quite high, under his chin. down he went -  it sacked him on the spot - down right there, but not dead right there. I quickly reloaded and we ran up to him as he was attempting to get to his feet - unsuccessfully thank goodness in his thrashing around. At point blank range, I tried a head shot and missed - dang.

Tracy handed me her rifle & I planted one in his neck as he twisted it up towards me, a little lower, which stopped all the action.  The TC Maxiball entered the neck then skidded along the spine to stop back between his shoulders. At that time, I thought that was good penetration for such a tiny bullet. 

Many years later and seeing their exceptionally poor results on moose from .50's and .54's, however was a nightmare - they are virtually useless on big, BIG game.

My .45 round ball, which as actually converted to a round-ended conical, had hit to one side of centre, cutting the carotid artery or jugular vein and exited the back of the neck beside the spine. That ball knocked him down, but did not kill him, even though he was bleeding profusely.  That is the last 'eating' animal I ever neck shot - don't do it. I was lucky he didn't make it to his feet- with the bush so tight in that area, it is possible I'd have lost him.

If you are going to use a slug in a slow twist rifle - regardless of the depth of it's rifling, use the shortest REAL bullet in the calibre.  Most of the other bullets produced today for ML's are too long for the slow twist barrels to maintain stability after impact. 

The longer bullets require a faster rifling twist to be stable.  Seemingly stable in the air over short distances (seems to group well on paper) is not the same as stable after impact.  You need a stable bullet for straight line penetration on big game. A round ball will give this - conicals might not- in your barrel. That is why some barrel makers make replacement barrels for some guns, with faster rates of twist, for shooting those conicals - twists such as 26", 28" and 32".
Daryl

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Offline bones92

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2016, 11:00:54 PM »
I wouldn't do a neck shot, realistically.   Shooting with a scoped Mauser is one thing, but I would hate to risk a maiming shot, so I will stick with a heart/lung shot.
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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2016, 11:20:37 PM »
Not only is it a chancy shot, but it can be very in-humane. Plus, you're shooting neck meat. That's for eating, not shooting.

I don't eat lungs, so it's a good place for a hole. ;)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 11:20:59 PM by OldMtnMan »

Offline WadePatton

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2016, 01:06:20 AM »
Not only is it a chancy shot, but it can be very in-humane. Plus, you're shooting neck meat. That's for eating, not shooting...

Interested in your processing and preparing of the neck meat.  I'd rather use more than less of the critter. None of my pals fool with the neck.  Thanks, PM or new thread [below]?  We shouldn't derail this one to recipes and sech.  ;D

I went and started a thread for butchering OTBF. 

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=42166.msg410427#msg410427
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 01:11:00 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2016, 01:20:05 AM »
I wasn't giving recipes, but stating why it's not a good shot to take.

I eat all my meat raw. Mountain man style. Ok, now i'm talking about a recipe. My bad.

Offline hanshi

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2016, 02:51:50 AM »
A prb will take down deer, bear or even elk; as long as the proper caliber is used.  I've recovered a few balls just under the off side skin.  Occasionally they flatten so much they will look like a coin with a thick center.

I've killed two deer with prb and neck shots, but they were accidents.  I always aim for the lung area as it is a certain stopper.  The neck shot deer twitched quickly enough that the ball hit them, one was hit in both carotids, bled out FAST and never took a step.  The second one was moving and I lead him too much.  Both, however, were DRT.  Never take head or neck shots on purpose.
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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2016, 04:26:07 AM »
When the ball flattens too much it could be from using too much powder. Sometimes less is more.

I only use 75-80gr of 2F for elk and bear. 60-65gr is enough for deer.

Offline hanshi

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2016, 09:12:31 PM »
Back then I was using 80 grains of 3F in my .45; but that load would evermore shoot!  Now I use 60grns or 65grns depending on the particular rifle.
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2016, 11:32:21 PM »
I'm wondering if the velocity of the ball at the target is the factor involved here as far as the ball flattening more or less. If you think your ball id going too fast just shoot from farther away.  ;D

Offline WadePatton

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2016, 02:52:35 AM »
If a 17-yard shot doesn't flatten my ball on a single shoulder hit, then I'm certain I'll not have too much velocity for such moderately boned creatures as our whitetails. 

IIRC Daryl preferred WW lead for backups (paper ctg'd) on the bruiser moosers he hunted.  ;)

I've yet to monkey with alloyed lead, but firmer round balls certainly retain shape (and thus penetrate) better. But they can be significantly more difficult to swage (start) down the bbl-as I understand it. Also alloys will cast to a slightly different dimension and weight.  I know the weight is less, but forgot which way the allow takes dimension.

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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2016, 08:05:29 AM »
Adding tin and/or antimony to pure lead - even a little - causes a ball to be of a larger diameter (fills the mould better) that a ball cast of pure lead.  But adding tin and/or antimony also makes the ball lighter.  Lead's Specific Gravity is greater than either tin or antimony.  The larger harder ball will be more difficult to load, even with a muzzle that is radius'd and polished...it's more difficult to make the harder ball swage into the weave of the patch and the rifling grooves.  But it is not impossible.  And the harder ball WILL penetrate better since it will retain its spherical shape better than a pure lead ball.  BUT, if the ball makes it to the skin on the opposite side of the critter, it doesn't make any difference what shape it is - it will have done it's havoc on the animal's tissue.  Still, I prefer a ball that goes through and through, giving an exit for blood that doesn't happen when the ball remains in the animal.

Before you take alloyed balls hunting, sight your rifle in with them.  They are unlikely to hit the same point of impact as your previous pure lead ammo.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2016, 08:24:34 PM »
An alloyed ball, for example, old style WW running about brinel 12 or 13, will out penetrate about any pure or dead soft slug that is usable in a round ball rifle.  The slugs must be pure lead- ie: dead soft so they will obturate (expand) and 'take' the rifling. Harder slugs will not do this, thus are not usable due to poor accuracy.

This is is the reason round balls held on so long as being the best for dangerous game when using muzzleloaders - they could be hardened for deeper penetration. 

Alloyed or hardened slugs were not accurate if loaded from the muzzle in normal muzzleloaders.

Only after the advent of breech loaders powerful enough and capable of using hardened slugs, were round ball muzzleloaders fazed out for dangerous game shooting in Africa and India.
Daryl

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Offline WadePatton

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2016, 09:39:27 PM »
An alloyed ball, for example, old style WW running about brinel 12 or 13, will out penetrate about any pure or dead soft slug that is usable in a round ball rifle.  The slugs must be pure lead- ie: dead soft so they will obturate (expand) and 'take' the rifling. Harder slugs will not do this, thus are not usable due to poor accuracy.

This is is the reason round balls held on so long as being the best for dangerous game when using muzzleloaders - they could be hardened for deeper penetration. 

Alloyed or hardened slugs were not accurate if loaded from the muzzle in normal muzzleloaders.

Only after the advent of breech loaders powerful enough and capable of using hardened slugs, were round ball muzzleloaders fazed out for dangerous game shooting in Africa and India.

Oh I see.  Has to do with obturation and it takes great pressures to obturate the enlongated bearing surfaces. Swaging the ball into the bore takes care of most of the oburation duties performed by the charge, and is a tiny bearing surface compared to the elongated projectiles.  Not trying to go off in that direction, but to see if I'm understanding it right.

I'll bet that was a trick to figure out. I've no use for tinned up lead*, but knew you'd used it in your paper ctgs for the mighty bullwinkles. 

* I do have enough super hard lead bullets to make a few nose caps, so I will give that a go.
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Offline hanshi

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2016, 10:58:22 PM »
WW metal is all I use in my smoothbore and I have many pounds of it.  Mostly I use the WW ball because they're larger in dia. than the pure lead ball.  This makes them better for the unpatched loads I like to use.  Pure lead is used in the rifles, of course, but in testing WW ball in the squirrel calibers showed me they can be as accurate as the soft lead ball.  If one doesn't have sufficient  soft lead, WW ball is still quite usable.  IMHO, WW ball in small calibers might possibly even be preferable since expansion is the last thing one wants when shooting small game.  Being already quite tiny, the dia. (and weight decrease) increase from WW metal Is barely noticeable.
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Offline Don Steele

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2016, 12:11:09 PM »
Darn it all Hanshi....
Here I sit getting a little low on pure lead inventory, but still pretty long on WW ingots.
I'm shooting a .395 RB in my 40 cal. SMR and now you have me thinking perhaps a .390 or .380 mold might be in order for me to get the best results from WW roundballs.
More molds...More range testing...MORE shooting...!!!!
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2016, 03:05:21 PM »
An alloyed ball, for example, old style WW running about brinel 12 or 13, will out penetrate about any pure or dead soft slug that is usable in a round ball rifle.  The slugs must be pure lead- ie: dead soft so they will obturate (expand) and 'take' the rifling. Harder slugs will not do this, thus are not usable due to poor accuracy.

This is is the reason round balls held on so long as being the best for dangerous game when using muzzleloaders - they could be hardened for deeper penetration. 

Alloyed or hardened slugs were not accurate if loaded from the muzzle in normal muzzleloaders.

Only after the advent of breech loaders powerful enough and capable of using hardened slugs, were round ball muzzleloaders fazed out for dangerous game shooting in Africa and India.

Oh I see.  Has to do with obturation and it takes great pressures to obturate the enlongated bearing surfaces. Swaging the ball into the bore takes care of most of the oburation duties performed by the charge, and is a tiny bearing surface compared to the elongated projectiles.  Not trying to go off in that direction, but to see if I'm understanding it right.

I'll bet that was a trick to figure out. I've no use for tinned up lead*, but knew you'd used it in your paper ctgs for the mighty bullwinkles. 

* I do have enough super hard lead bullets to make a few nose caps, so I will give that a go.


If my enfeebled memory serves me right,John Rigby of long range fame developed a rifling system for
using hardened,elongated bullets in long range muzzle loaders. I think maybe the definition of "hardened" should be looked at
and see what ratio of tin,lead or whatever is considered hard. I have about 10 pounds of dental X ray lead and access to more.
This material may have some merit but other that a model 29 S&W I have no way to test it.
One man on this forum has a nice Rigby and maybe he can enlighten us.

Bob Roller

Offline Daryl

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2016, 10:57:51 PM »
The little foil dental X-ray lead are actually quite hard. Due to their thin construction, they feel like soft lead as they are very flexible, but indeed, balls or ingots cast of them 'clink'.  With most Dentists pretty much going digital now, even those little lead packs are becoming hard to find. They make perfect lead for modern handguns though.

Frosythe wrote of using Murcury for hardening lead for balls back in 1860.   After reading his book, I tried mercury for hardening my 14 bore rifle's balls and found it worked somewhat but was not as good as simply adding antimony (WW) or tin (50/50 solder).  Murcury did harden the lead some, but also made the balls slightly heavier than straight pure lead, rather than lighter as tin or antimony do.

A certain Englishman Army officer, a General Jacob developed a mechanically fitted bullets and moulds, which produced fins on the bullets to fit rather deep similar 4-groove barrels wound in a rapid twist (up to 22") in a SXS rifle.  These rifles had long ladder sights for the military use in blowing up ammunition wagons at long range.  It worked - somewhat when copper tubed bullets containing detonating compounds and powder were loaded.  With these, he  which he once blew up an ammunition wagon at a range of 1,000 yards.
 
In trying these copper-tubed explosive bullets, Forsythe found they are very poor at killing game as they needed to strike heavy bone in order to detonate, so he developed his own designs, which worked a treat on Tigers.  Also - he found they worked only down to about 14 bore, being the smallest useful explosive bullet for dangerous game.  Different loads were used for different game.  These fell out of favour when breech loading guns of sufficient power were developed for shooting dangerous game. Then, hardened bullets could be used for deeper penetration than even hardeded round balls provided.

Samuel Baker once wrote in talking about a 14 bore rifle: "4 1/2 drachms (4.5drams = 123gr.) will drive a ball that size through both sides of an elephant's head, and  4 1/2 or even 5 drachms (136gr.) may be used on such a rifle without any very unpleasant recoil, and without any bad effect on the accuracy of the ball, but the reverse.  But- great and ample as such penetrations are, vastly greater may be given to the spherical ball by simply adding a little tin or mercury to the composition of the ball: which does not injure the grooves of the rifle in the least, as they ought not to indent the metal of the bullet in any direction, the spiral motion being given by the patch alone."

Writers of the day misused the apothecary's weight nomenclature ie: drachms, instead of the word drams, which was undoubtedly meant.  1 drachm carries 60gr., whereas a dram is 27.3gr. weight.

Baker was writing about Forsyth's style of rifling, regards the ball not having to impress in the rifling  due to shallow grooves & narrow lands "almost knife-edged" with 1 turn in 104" or as slow as 1 turn in 12feet - a 1/4 turn in the length of the barrels most commonly used in side by side rifles was 26", hence the 104" rate of twist.

Later - as in 1860's, the Whitworth hexagonal rifling was developed for military rifles, shooting a hexagonal shaped, paper patched bullet.  These .45 calibre Whitworth rifles out-shot the then-current hollow based conical shooting Enfield of .577 calibre at long ranges.

Due to their complexity, and propensity to foul, they did not catch on and although inferior in range, the Enfield rifles remained in use by the military.

 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 11:02:59 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline hanshi

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2016, 12:45:38 AM »
Darn it all Hanshi....
Here I sit getting a little low on pure lead inventory, but still pretty long on WW ingots.
I'm shooting a .395 RB in my 40 cal. SMR and now you have me thinking perhaps a .390 or .380 mold might be in order for me to get the best results from WW roundballs.
More molds...More range testing...MORE shooting...!!!!
 ::) ::) ::) ;D



Don, the dia. of a small .390" ball will probably only be .002" or maybe less.  Your .395" mold might be noticeable with the increase but you'd have to see.  In my rifles, including a .40, the WW ball loaded no differently than the soft lead ball.  I also no difference in the poi as compared with the lead ball.  Definitely worth looking at.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2016, 05:11:29 AM »
 My Lyman .395" mould casts .398x.397" and they shot wonderfully.  The .400 x.400 Lyman mould I have casts one at .400" x .400" and they are amazingly accurate with the same .0220" to .0235" patches.
Daryl

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Offline scottmc

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2016, 05:16:11 AM »
I'll throw in my recent experience with the REAL 250 grain bullet.  I tried it three years ago just for fun and found it to shoot impressively well at 50 yards with 70 grains of goex 3F (six o'clock hold and that's where it hit).  Group was about 1.5 inches.  This was out of my Dreppard rifle that was orginally a .45 green mountain barrel and then I had Bobby Hoyt bore it out to a .50.  His twist of choice is 1 in 60.  I'm sure his rifling is deeper in the .010-.012 range.  I've killed two deer now with that load and I like it because it punches all the way through.  A lot of my PRB kills have resulted in the ball holding up on the far side inside the hide and with little or no blood to follow.  I like it enough that I just bought a mold off this site last week for the 250 REAL bullet.  I'm a purist and love the PRB in a good flint but I also like two holes if possible to make tracking a little easier without snow on the ground (thanks to global warming).
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Offline bones92

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2016, 05:35:07 AM »
Scottmc, I asked the question because I was going to buy that very same REAL mould... but you beat me to it.  ;)
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Offline scottmc

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2016, 03:35:39 AM »
Sorry....but not really ;D
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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: R.E.A.L. vs PRB
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2016, 04:41:13 AM »
I'll throw in my recent experience with the REAL 250 grain bullet.  I tried it three years ago just for fun and found it to shoot impressively well at 50 yards with 70 grains of goex 3F (six o'clock hold and that's where it hit).  Group was about 1.5 inches.  This was out of my Dreppard rifle that was orginally a .45 green mountain barrel and then I had Bobby Hoyt bore it out to a .50.  His twist of choice is 1 in 60.  I'm sure his rifling is deeper in the .010-.012 range.  I've killed two deer now with that load and I like it because it punches all the way through.  A lot of my PRB kills have resulted in the ball holding up on the far side inside the hide and with little or no blood to follow.  I like it enough that I just bought a mold off this site last week for the 250 REAL bullet.  I'm a purist and love the PRB in a good flint but I also like two holes if possible to make tracking a little easier without snow on the ground (thanks to global warming).

I don't mean to bust your chops, but you can't be a part time purist. You either are, or you're not. Getting a PRB to pass through is not that difficult. Even on elk.