Author Topic: Other Brands of Powder?  (Read 9975 times)

Offline Scota4570

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Other Brands of Powder?
« on: November 30, 2016, 12:02:16 AM »
Goex is probably most common, Swiss seems to be the best.  And then the others.......

Schuetzen, Wano (Graf's), Diamondback, and Elphant are available a consiterable savings over Goex and Swiss.  How bad are they, really?  This would be for rifles.  We swab each shot, ....club rules.



Is Elephant brand 5FG/meal D suitable as a priming powder?  Is is similar to null-b?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 02:36:05 AM by Scota4570 »

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Off Brand Powders?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2016, 12:24:22 AM »
I've tried Schuetzen and it's pretty close to Goex. Maybe a hair less power, but a hair cleaner because it's made with the same alder charcoal as Swiss.

Not sure i'd call them off brand?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 12:25:18 AM by OldMtnMan »

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2016, 01:09:43 AM »
"Off Brands"   Good point.  I tweaked the post. 

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2016, 01:23:37 AM »
You forgot KIK. I shoot it, it's pretty good. Schuetzen ain't bad either. D-back and Olyphant is about the same....horrible.
I like Swiss the best then Goex. I hear the Eylensford stuff is pretty good too but have never tried it.

It's a freakin' RULE that you have to swab? :o Heck , I still blow down the barrel so I don't have to swab. I suppose they'd $#@* there drawers if I showed up.....or maybe I would be sent on my way in a hurry..... ;)
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2016, 01:42:04 AM »
I know shooters who swear by Jacks Battle Powder and they win matches with it. I like and shoot Swiss and will continue to until my current supply runs out.

Offline Bluesmoke

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2016, 01:46:47 AM »
Down Under in the Antipodes we are limited to only to, two  brands of Powder.

Goex sells for over $90Au per lb. Yep! No typo there guys .This sort of predatory pricing is why we ( which is most of the club blokes ) won't buy from the local gun shop that does stock Goex.

Wano sells for around  $70 per kilo ( thats 2.2 lbs.) Do the maths and its about a 1/3 of the price.

Wano is a pretty good powder and has very much improved in quality since when I last purchased it.

One of the two remaining blackpowder shooters  dedicated dealers has just shut up shop and the remaining one ,who is the Pedersoli importer is not getting any younger.
A shooting colleague did a test on both with some sort of tool that measure the power of the power - don't ask me what it was , I have never seen it.

Long story ,short is that the tool measured a 7 for Goex and and a 6.8 for Wano.

Close enough for me.



Offline Maven

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2016, 02:27:40 AM »
"D-back and Olyphant is about the same....horrible."

Well Mike, that just ain't so.  Diamondback is made at the same plant as Elephant, but the powders are in no way alike.  I've burned more than a case of DB and find it as clean burning and accurate as Wano/Graf's, which is to say cleaner than Goex, and infinitely cleaner (and faster) than Elephant.
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2016, 02:34:38 AM »
Down Under in the Antipodes we are limited to only to, two  brands of Powder.

Goex sells for over $90Au per lb. Yep! No typo there guys ...


Wow, that's 67.39 USD at today's rate.   :o
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2016, 03:13:10 AM »
Now I don't feel so bad about paying $40.00 per pound for Swiss. Well, actually I do and am loathe to shoot it now. That 10 pounds cost $400.00.  It is better than GOEX, but - it is not 150% better.
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Offline Scota4570

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2016, 03:45:23 AM »
Thanks, keep them coming.

I am not as interested in the brute power of one vs another.  +/- 5 grains of a few FPS is not on my radar screen.   The amount of fouling is an issue.  If one is particularly dirty that would cross it off the list.  IF one simply does not shoot well that would be bad. 

For now, Wano (Graf's) seems to be the front runner based on price and reasonable performance. 

Offline EC121

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2016, 03:59:46 AM »
I can't answer because I am still shooting Goex I  bought years ago at$3.50/lb when I was shooting matches.  ;)  I slacked off shooting a lot when interest died out around here and got into RC planes.  Now that I have retired, I have started shooting more.   The Goex will have to work for me for a while.  
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 03:35:58 PM by EC121 »
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Offline bgf

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2016, 07:37:34 AM »
Graf's is exactly the same as schuetzen, only the label is different.  Usually underpowered compared to goex, but not so bad.  Worst thing is that perhaps? whatever properties make the fouling soft like swiss, for me tended to plug touchholes pretty badly in sticky weather or even damp weather.

I had 7# of Grafs at one point and was pretty  happy the day I used the last of it. YMMV :).

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2016, 12:45:13 PM »
"D-back and Olyphant is about the same....horrible."

Well Mike, that just ain't so.  Diamondback is made at the same plant as Elephant, but the powders are in no way alike.  I've burned more than a case of DB and find it as clean burning and accurate as Wano/Graf's, which is to say cleaner than Goex, and infinitely cleaner (and faster) than Elephant.
I bought 5 lbs of D-back when it first hit the market. Maybe they were filling the fist cans with left over Olyphant , the two were  identical. I used it for cartridge shotguns.
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Offline Maven

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2016, 05:41:07 PM »
Mike, My lot of DB is of much more recent manufacture and in all ways is as clean burning and accurate as Wano/Graf's of the same granulation.  With wet, i.e. almost dripping, patches, and DB FFg I really don't need to swab between shots and loading is easy.  As for accuracy, it's not the powder....!
Paul W. Brasky

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2016, 07:39:23 PM »
Mike, My lot of DB is of much more recent manufacture and in all ways is as clean burning and accurate as Wano/Graf's of the same granulation.  With wet, i.e. almost dripping, patches, and DB FFg I really don't need to swab between shots and loading is easy.  As for accuracy, it's not the powder....!
That must be the difference, two completely different lots of powder. Good to know D-back is an alternative that will work.
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2016, 11:58:05 PM »
I started off shooting Dupont at $1 per pound and have no complaints.  Later there was "G-O" or something like that and it was good.  Later started shooting Elephant and Goex, depending on what was available at the time; and I have no complaints about the Elephant - maybe I just lucked into a good lot.  Goex, of course, was and is sort of the standard against which other brands are compared.  I've ordered it in case lots and still have a few pounds of it.  Later I found Jack's Battle Powder and the performance was at least on par with Goex sometimes beating it; also it cost less.

I've heard good things about OE but haven't tried it.  I intend to get some and try it.  Currently I have close to a case of powder, 1/2 Goex and 1/2 JBP.  I really like the JBP and will likely get more.
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Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2016, 04:37:37 AM »
I have a supply of Goex, both 3fg and 2fg, and 4fg for prime. I like Goex. It works so well for me I don't care to even try another brand. Plus I've got enough to last me through all the shooting I'm likely to do in this lifetime. So the last thing I need is to try something like Swiss and find I like it better.
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2016, 05:55:48 AM »
I have a supply of Goex, both 3fg and 2fg, and 4fg for prime. I like Goex. It works so well for me I don't care to even try another brand. Plus I've got enough to last me through all the shooting I'm likely to do in this lifetime. So the last thing I need is to try something like Swiss and find I like it better.

That's my situation almost exactly, but I don't use 4f in the field (after one attempt), so one can is a lifetime supply.  I'll need more 2 and 3f, but not _anytime_ real soon.  Until I "hit a wall" in hole-punching, I've no desire to find out I like a more expensive powder.
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Offline Don Steele

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2016, 12:29:39 PM »
Another Goex shooter, 90 % of the time. That is to say, for all of my offhand shooting. No better than I shoot...there's not a powder made that will make a difference in my offhand scores.
That said though....the other 10% of my ML shooting is done in Table and Chunk shooting. In those competitions where a rest is involved, and with MY ( Green Mtn. bbl.) rifle...I have documented a small improvement in group size when I did some side-by-side testing of Goex vs. Swiss. 
Your experience may differ.
With both powders, I'm getting one hole groups. What I found with Swiss however is that the one hole is a bit smaller and less "ragged" than with Goex.
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Offline Scota4570

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2016, 03:03:41 AM »
I have no issue with GOEX.  I have shot 95% GOEX over the years.  But, if I can save $5 a pound with another brand, that adds up to $250 on the group buy.  Anyhoo, the group buy is being put off until next month.  I think they want to gete GOEX.  That is fine, but I had hoped to try something else.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2016, 12:43:12 AM »
"D-back and Olyphant is about the same....horrible."

Well Mike, that just ain't so.  Diamondback is made at the same plant as Elephant, but the powders are in no way alike.  I've burned more than a case of DB and find it as clean burning and accurate as Wano/Graf's, which is to say cleaner than Goex, and infinitely cleaner (and faster) than Elephant.

The Elephant plant at Reciefe was shut down in 2001 after being closed almost 6 months due to flooding when the monsoon hit well South of hits usual path.  The machinery was stripped out of that plant and sold to a man who built a new plant some 50 klicks down the coast to a port set up just to handle "dangerous goods" in and out of Brazil.  I assume the new plant is using the same wood for charcoal and following the same manufacturing process at was used at the S/A Pernambuco Plant when it operated outside of Reciefe in Brazil.  I know the new owner wanted to look at better wood than the Imbauba palm wood used at the old plant.  Don't know if they found anything better.  I refused to get involved in that deal.

Offline Nit Wit

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2017, 04:37:36 AM »
In 1972 I started with meteor and dupont. Over the years I have sot dragon,elephant, diamondback,(the last two are no longer available)  goex,KIK(can't get that either) so now I'm back to schutzen. It's all been good, just some a bit dirtier. I really liked KIK.
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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2017, 03:44:47 AM »
Goex is all that can be found around here (E. ky.). It is 30 bucks a lb.

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2017, 06:03:16 PM »
Been almost all Goex for over 40 years. Shot a can of Elephant in the 80s for a review (guess they didn't like my opinion).  On a trip a couple of summers ago and ran out of Goex so bought a can of Swiss 1 1/2. Shot about the same as my FFg.

This year I won several cans of Schutzen and am now practicing/evaluating it at the same time.  When in a big match I'll be shooting the Goex FFg w 4F prime due to great confidence in that combination.
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Other Brands of Powder?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2017, 01:13:44 AM »
Been almost all Goex for over 40 years. Shot a can of Elephant in the 80s for a review (guess they didn't like my opinion).  On a trip a couple of summers ago and ran out of Goex so bought a can of Swiss 1 1/2. Shot about the same as my FFg.

This year I won several cans of Schutzen and am now practicing/evaluating it at the same time.  When in a big match I'll be shooting the Goex FFg w 4F prime due to great confidence in that combination.
TC

Regarding your comment: "(guess they didn't like my opinion)".

The first container into the U.S. of Elephant out of Brazil came in around 1991.  The owner of a company known as Petro-Explo was started by a man who came up from Brazil with $50 in his pocket.  Started out as an accountant for Gearhart-Owen.  Figured out a way to ship detonators with a high degree of safety.  Then went off on his own and formed this Petro-Explo company.
He agreed to test market the first container of Elephant for the people running the plant in Brazil.  Nobody at Petro-Explo had any background or knowledge of black powder and how it should behave in a gun.  When I tested a can out of that container I fired off a letter to them telling them why it was not as good as GOEX in the gun but it could be improved to compete with GOEX.  I had watched how GOEX's Moosic, PA plant was going down the tubes and how GOEX was being managed.  The idea that we BP shooters depended entirely on a source that was very close to going out of business was a bit unsettling.  When you look at that old Moosic, PA black powder plant between 1990 and 1997 you see it out of production for roughly half that time period.  Others in the industry were looking at a possible closure of the plant in 1990-91.  By 1992 WANO, in Germany, set up a U.S. company to import WANO into the U.S.  A man by the name of Stew Fisher was in charge of that.  He and I spent some time together on that project.  But the powers to be at WANO refused to consider changes in their powder to make it better suited to the U.S. market.
The S/A Pernambuco Powder Factory, in Brazil, agreed to makes changes in their product to better suit the U.S. market.  In some runs they did good.  Other runs not so good.  But from 1991 to roughly the year 2000 the Elephant imports into the U.S. sort of saved the day for U.S. bp shooters.  By 1994-95 GOEX was having one "incident" a year that would shut them down for 6 months at a time.  The pattern was an incident then a 6 month shutdown then about 6 months of production before another incident.  Party of that rests on the government in Pennsylvania.  The then Department of Natural Resources.  GOEX would have to rebuild a piece of machinery and then wait for the state to give them approval to start it back up.  Even if it only took 2 or 3 weeks to rebuild the piece of machinery they would make you wait 5 to 6 months for an approval to restart it.
When GOEX started the then new plant up at Minden, Louisiana they ended up importing roughly 8 million pounds of black powder into the U.S. to make up for what they were unable to produce.
From 1990 until roughly 2000 there would have been serious shortages of black powder in the U.S. without Elephant and the KIK GOEX brought in from Slovenia.  The single container of KIK for shooters was only a fraction of what they brought in from KIK in Slovenia that went to other shooters.  While Elephant was never all that it could be it saved the day for a number of years when GOEX could not begin to supply the market in the U.S.