Lock style options for double shotgun

[webradbury]

I am gearing up to begin building a double barrel flintlock fowler. I ordered left and right hand Manton locks by L and R and to be honest, they aren't doing anything for me in the quality department.

Is there another style lock that could be suitable/appropriate for this type build. I would love to use Chambers locks but I can't find a suitable style in their offerings. Any advice?

[smart dog]

Hi,
If you really want to do this right, get castings from E. J. Blackley or The Rifle Shoppe for Manton, Nock, Fenton, or any of the great British makers.  L & R locks would be very poor substitutes.

dave

[webradbury]

It would be a daunting task for me to drill and tap all of those holes precisely to assemble a lock from the castings. I wish I could. I love Chambers locks but they mostly carry rifle locks. I would be tempted to use their late ketland lock but I don't think they have a left hander. Maybe two Queen Anne pistol locks...I don't know. I know I will send the L and R locks back Monday. They don't hold a candle to Chambers locks!

[smylee grouch]

I wonder if The Rifle Shop assembles the lock kits they sell?

[webradbury]

There was a mention on there website about their assembled locks. I plan on calling them Monday to find out more.

[David Rase]

I would not send the L&R locks back.  There is nothing wrong with using the L&R John Bailes locks.  I will be using a set this summer for a double barrel flintlock 20 gage for a client.  I will disassemble them and give them a tune up and they will function just fine.  When tuned up, they will provide a pretty quick ignition.If you are not willing or do not have the capabilities to build a set of locks for a double the L&R's are a good substitute in my opinion.
David         

[jerrywh]

 I agree with Dave Rase.  I have built Blackley's locks and have some kits in stock but for your ability I would go with the L&R Mantons. When I use L&R locks I draw the temper on the internals to 600¯F.
  Also If you are willing to pay the price Blackley might have some finished locks in stoick.  Everything Blackley has is top of the line. Kevin is a jewel to work with.

[Rolf]

Blackely has beautiful lock kits and furniture but take his delivery times with a grain of salt. I've orderd from him several times. Delivery has allways been at least 6 months late. The last order I placed with him is not cast jet and is so far 5 months delayed. Expect about a year from order (and payment) to delivery.

Best regards
Rolf

[smart dog]

HI,
The L&R Bailes locks would work and are about the right length.  Most double gun locks were 4.5-4.75" long.  My problem with the Bailes lock is the curve at the bottom of the lock plate.  Double guns I've seen using that lock either tip the front of the lock up so the nose is parallel with the barrels or the rear (and pan) is positioned parallel with the barrels but the nose tips downward.  In both cases, it looks awkward to my eyes. I really regret that L&R chose to copy a lock by a relatively obscure maker like John Bailes rather than a small lock by a really great maker like  John Manton, Nock, or even Mortimer.  Then we would have a really good lock for double guns and pistols. 

dave

[webradbury]

I would not send the L&R locks back.  There is nothing wrong with using the L&R John Bailes locks.  I will be using a set this summer for a double barrel flintlock 20 gage for a client.  I will disassemble them and give them a tune up and they will function just fine.  When tuned up, they will provide a pretty quick ignition.If you are not willing or do not have the capabilities to build a set of locks for a double the L&R's are a good substitute in my opinion.
David         

What is generally done to tune these locks?

[Bob Roller]

Blackely has beautiful lock kits and furniture but take his delivery times with a grain of salt. I've orderd from him several times. Delivery has allways been at least 6 months late. The last order I placed with him is not cast jet and is so far 5 months delayed. Expect about a year from order (and payment) to delivery.

Best regards
Rolf

Maybe the lock "kits"from England have been improved. The ones I have looked at in
past years had no usable internal parts for anyone that planned to shoot the gun very much.
The external parts also needed better tooling. I made 2 pairs of flintlocks for "Bud"Garrott
in Tn. years ago and used only the external parts and it took me to my skill limits to get them
working.I have made probably 5 pairs using the L&R small Manton but have no plans to start
up again on them.I am not sure about how to "tune"them as delivered due to little quality
control on hole drilling and reaming.A complete retooling would raise the quality of these locks
to a more beneficial level but that,if done RIGHT would be cost prohibitive for a small shop.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

Blackely has beautiful lock kits and furniture but take his delivery times with a grain of salt. I've orderd from him several times. Delivery has allways been at least 6 months late. The last order I placed with him is not cast jet and is so far 5 months delayed. Expect about a year from order (and payment) to delivery.

Best regards
Rolf

Maybe the lock "kits"from England have been improved. The ones I have looked at in
past years had no usable internal parts for anyone that planned to shoot the gun very much.
The external parts also needed better tooling. I made 2 pairs of flintlocks for "Bud"Garrott
in Tn. years ago and used only the external parts and it took me to my skill limits to get them
working.I have made probably 5 pairs using the L&R small Manton but have no plans to start
up again on them.I am not sure about how to "tune"them as delivered due to little quality
control on hole drilling and reaming.A complete retooling would raise the quality of these locks
to a more beneficial level but that,if done RIGHT would be cost prohibitive for a small shop.

Bob Roller

Correction:The parts for Bud Garrott were from The Rifle Shoppe in Oklahoma and
NOT from England. I have used the English external parts for 2 tiny Fenton locks
and just yesterday a Canadian friend called and said he's been using his for 25 years.

Bob Roller

[bob in the woods]

Would the Chambers Gunmaker's locks be an option. ?    They can be transformed into many different styles and they function well, although they might be a bit large.

[webradbury]

They have a faceted pan on the gun makers lock.  The more I look at these L and R locks, the more I believe I was a little hasty in my judgment. Also, I can detect no discernible difference in the J. Bailes lock and the manton lock. Maybe size but shape seems to be the same.

[L. Akers]

I built a double several years ago and used the L & R late english locks.  After some tuning and modifying they work great and are appropriate.

[webradbury]

I built a double several years ago and used the L & R late english locks.  After some tuning and modifying they work great and are appropriate.

What did you have to do to them?

[bob in the woods]

The faceted pan on the gunmaker's lock is easily filed out.  I've changed a few of those locks into English styled locks

[Bob Roller]

They have a faceted pan on the gun makers lock.  The more I look at these L and R locks, the more I believe I was a little hasty in my judgment. Also, I can detect no discernible difference in the J. Bailes lock and the manton lock. Maybe size but shape seems to be the same.

I think TOW uses the Bailes name for the L&R small Manton lock.
There was a mould for a Bailes lock,frizzen and cock that I got
from TOW in 1978 or 79 and used them for a German target pistol
project of about 125 pistols of Boutet pattern by Helmut Mohr in
Mayen/Hausen Germany.I gave these moulds to Les Barber who
does lock and trigger assembly for R.E.Davis at the Mould and Gun Shop
in Southern Ohio.That was another labor intensive project I don't miss.

Bob Roller

[t.caster]

I haven't built anything with a L&R Bailes/Small Manton since the 90's, but the quickness and dependability back then was unmatched, I thought. I haven't seen a recent Bailes, so I cant speak to the quality of the castings, but I am sure I could get them working fine with some extra effort, unless the holes are drilled off kilter or something. 
I still have a 25 yr. old longrifle and an English flint double I built with those locks, and I trust them to go off quickly EVERY time!

[smart dog]

Hi Bob,
You are right, they call it the small Manton and say it is copied from a Manton lock.  I would love to see the lock they copied because I have never seen a John or Joe Manton flintlock either in a photo or in the flesh with such a pronounced curve on the bottom of the plate.  They also certainly did not copy the nice stepped moldings on the bevels usually found on the plates and flintcocks of Manton locks.

dave

[Daryl]

I would not send the L&R locks back.  There is nothing wrong with using the L&R John Bailes locks.  I will be using a set this summer for a double barrel flintlock 20 gage for a client.  I will disassemble them and give them a tune up and they will function just fine.  When tuned up, they will provide a pretty quick ignition.If you are not willing or do not have the capabilities to build a set of locks for a double the L&R's are a good substitute in my opinion.
David        

Here are a pair of L&R John Bailes locks on a double 12.

[Daryl]

Here is a SXS that Cody built, but I do not know what the locks are. L&R Manton?

[bgf]

Here is a SXS that Cody built, but I do not know what the locks are. L&R Manton?

That is the L&R  Late English,  "Ashmoor" or sometimes "Manton" or "Manton ashmoor", my favorite lock for looks.  Davis late ketland is similar, I believe.  If one could talk Bob Roller into working his magic on one of the L&r's, it would be a great thing!

I think the John Bailes ought to be called the small Durs Egg instead of Manton .  It is not a bad lock, but I've seen good and bad examples.

PS. On second look, I don't think it is L&R lock due to lack of roller on spring and other things.

[Mike Brooks]

Durrs Egg will also work with a bit of tuning as well. They are a bit big, but with big barrels don't look too bad.

[L. Akers]

What did you have to do to them?
[/quote]

I polished the internal parts including springs, the nose of the sear and the full-cock notch.  I made inset Manton breeches so had to modify the lockplate boss to accomodate the inset and re-drill the pocket for the frizzen screw head.  Shorten the frizzen screw and run the thread further up the shaft.  At the time I bought the locks the left-right were not matching.  The plates matched but the cocks were completely different so I bought a pair of cocks from Siler and re-shaped them.