Author Topic: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel  (Read 10588 times)

Offline bones92

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Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« on: December 09, 2016, 04:51:42 PM »
I am making arrangements to purchase the Mike Davis-built .40 SMR that was listed on the trader forum recently.   It is a Colerain A-weight.

I looked on Colerain's website, but I don't see any mention of post-production lapping or polishing of the bores.   Their website indicates that .40 caliber barrels have grooves .012" deep and a 1:48 twist (which evidently is an ideal twist rate, though I would have expected something closer to 1:60).

Is there anything special I should do initially, or just load and shoot it?   

Really looking forward to it!
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Offline PPatch

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2016, 05:22:35 PM »
Load it and shoot it. Soon enough the bore will be lapped to perfection. There is no such thing as "seasoning" a modern barrel, that is a holdover from the time when barrels were forged from wrought iron - and might have been an old wives tale even then.

If you want to you could round off, polish, the muzzle of the barrel by using sandpaper and your thumb. A la' this thread

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=41213.msg400883#msg400883

Have fun with your new rifle, stay safe.

dave
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 05:26:39 PM by PPatch »
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nosrettap1958

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2016, 09:03:26 PM »
Interesting. Thompson Center offered all or most of their rifles with a 1 in 48 twist rate although I know little else about their rifling such as depth and width of the grooves, yet I've seen a few of their rifles shoot patched rounds ball very well.

Keep us posted on how it shoots, will ya, Bones.

Offline Mike_StL

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2016, 09:43:41 PM »
1 in  48 is just fine for your 40 cal.  I think a 0.380" ball and 0.020" patching is one option for starting to determine a starting load.

Colerain barrels are pretty good from the supplier.   Shoot.  Look at the patches.  Make one change at a time.

Enjoy your new rifle.

Offline bones92

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2016, 10:06:55 PM »
Straight from the Colerain website...


We offer the following calibers and rifling in our barrels.

36 caliber @ 1-48 twist

40 caliber @ 1-48 twist

45 caliber @ 1-56 twist

50 caliber @ 1-56 twist

54 caliber @ 1-56 twist

58 caliber @ 1-56 twist

62 caliber @ 1-66 twist

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Offline Daryl

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2016, 10:36:09 PM »
Load it and shoot it. Soon enough the bore will be lapped to perfection. There is no such thing as "seasoning" a modern barrel, that is a holdover from the time when barrels were forged from wrought iron - and might have been an old wives tale even then.

If you want to you could round off, polish, the muzzle of the barrel by using sandpaper and your thumb. A la' this thread

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=41213.msg400883#msg400883

Have fun with your new rifle, stay safe.

dave



Daves advice is excellent advice, however, I would change the second sentence to read - you MUST round off, polish the muzzle using sandpaper and your thumb. (- or a lathe)

If you want to shoot accurately with this rifle, then you will need at least a .390" mould, and .395" would be better.

It will need a substantial patch as well as from 45gr. to 75gr. of 3F GOEX or other good powder, depending on what your rifle's barrel wants to display it's best accuracy - it's what IT wants, not what you want to shoot, of course you can always use what you want and put up with inferior accuracy - may shooters do.
Daryl

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nosrettap1958

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2016, 01:33:35 AM »
That's what I've always heard, the best way to polish the lands and grooves of a rifle is to shoot it. 

Offline RichG

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2016, 03:01:51 AM »
the only time I've ever lapped a barrel or polished the inside was if there was a rough spot or bur that was cutting the patch. as for twist, the larger the ball the less twist needed. forsythe's 16 bores had twists of 1 in 144. 16 bore is a little larger than most of us use ;D   

Offline bones92

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2016, 03:44:13 AM »
Also, straight from their website...

We do not recommend coning muzzles. Some do with success, others not with success. This is one area where we will not provide warranty if a barrel has been coned.

Not sure if this is the same as using the thumb and sandpaper... Why wouldn't Colerain do this before shipping each barrel out?
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2016, 03:59:18 AM »
One turn in 48" is ideal for a .40 cal. And pretty darn good for a .45 caliber. One in .56 is the ideal twist for a .45 caliber. I personally have never heard of a 1 in 60 twist in a .45 caliber. Given a choice between 1 in 48, or 1 in 60, I 'd take the 1 in 48. JMO.

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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2016, 07:03:24 AM »
Just for general information..I had a Douglas and a Green Mountain barrel in .45 which were both 1 in 60 twist. The Douglas was a real terrific shooter with heavier deer hunting loads.  {  Correction- the Douglas was 1 in 66 !! ]
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 04:36:48 PM by bob in the woods »

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2016, 07:26:18 AM »
I have two .40 Douglas barrels that are 1/66 twist w .012" grooves. Great shooters.  The TC barrels w 1/48 twist are shallow grooves (iirc about .004"). They made a few 1/66 twist barrels that were marked as "Round Ball" but I never had one to measure the groove depth.
TC
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 06:30:37 PM by Standing Bear »
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Offline little joe

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2016, 11:17:41 AM »
Green River Rifle Works  45 cal.bbls were 1in60 twist and good shooters.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2016, 10:51:30 PM »
My .40 has a Green Mountain swamped barrel with, I believe, a 1-48" twist.  It always shot extremely well.  The .45, on the other hand, is 1-56" and provides excellent accuracy.  My .54, which is also a very fine shooter, is 1-66".  Perhaps too much is made over twist rates.
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Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2016, 01:38:16 AM »
Maybe a little too much,Hanshi, yes. But part of the internal ballistics has to do with mass and acceleration. The .40 ball weighs +- 92 gr and a .54 about 230 gr.  So the .54 has more resistance to a change in position due to acceleration both horizontal and rotational. It's easier to get a smaller ball spinning without stripping the rifling than a larger one.

Short range target use or subsonic muzzle velocities in a .54 a 48 twist will be real good. Hunting loads like 120gr a 66 or 72 twist with deep rifling  works well.
TC
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 07:28:43 AM by Standing Bear »
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Offline bones92

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2016, 04:03:07 PM »
I would be interested in hearing any recommended loads for .40 caliber.  I have a bunch of .395 ball.   The 1:48 twist would seem to allow for higher muzzle velocities.  Curious to know what kind of drop the ball would experience at 100 yards, if zeroed at 25.
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Offline RichG

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2016, 08:26:16 PM »
 Achieving high velocity in a 40 is easy but accuracy more important. as to a load, that depends on your barrel and components. experimenting on loads is half the fun. zeroed at 25 yds your going to be way low at a 100yds. The old Lyman black powder handbook has data for .350 and .440 round balls. they show 8" plus drop. A 1/2" high at 25 will help greatly at longer ranges. I also like to file a bevel on my front sight to provide a secondary aiming point for longer ranges. Peter Alexander mentions this is The Gunsmith of Grenville Co. Of course muzzle velocity has a lot to do with drop at longer ranges.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2016, 10:46:13 PM »
Bones92, All I can suggest are the loads my .40 likes.  Haven't yet picked up a .495" mold so still shoot a .390" ball with a .022" patch.  Thirty grains of Goex or JBP 3F does extremely well at 30 yards while .40 grains gives splendid accuracy at at least 75 Yards.  For 100 yard groups I find 60 grains gives me the tightest groups I'm capable of shooting; this would be my deer load as it approaches 2000fps.  The 40 grain load gets over 1700fps.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2016, 10:47:47 PM »
With a water based lube my .40 Goodoien barrel having a 48" twist, would shoot 3F OR 2F GOEX in quantities from 55gr. to 65gr. with about equal accuracy.

With an oil bases lube, like Hoppe's #9 PLUS or LehighValley lube, it would not shoot accurately with less than 65gr.3F or 75.0gr. 2F GOEX.

I used .398" and .400" round balls of dead soft lead with both powders, as well as 10 ounce denim (.0225") or heavy mattress ticking I measured tightly compressed at .0235". Loading was what I consider "easy" with these combinations using the rifle's 3/8" hickory rod - no mallets, no hammers, no bludgeons  just a short starter stud and 6 post to get the ball started. After that, it's 2 fingers on the rod to the breech.
Daryl

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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2016, 11:55:28 PM »
Interesting. Thompson Center offered all or most of their rifles with a 1 in 48 twist rate although I know little else about their rifling such as depth and width of the grooves, yet I've seen a few of their rifles shoot patched rounds ball very well.

Keep us posted on how it shoots, will ya, Bones.

It's a shallow rifling. Made more for conicals than a PRB, but they shoot pretty good too.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2016, 12:01:38 AM »
My .54 is a 1-60, deep groove and shoots what I call a hunting load really good. 90gr Goex 3F.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2016, 10:09:56 PM »
Interesting. Thompson Center offered all or most of their rifles with a 1 in 48 twist rate although I know little else about their rifling such as depth and width of the grooves, yet I've seen a few of their rifles shoot patched rounds ball very well.

Keep us posted on how it shoots, will ya, Bones.

It's a shallow rifling. Made more for conicals than a PRB, but they shoot pretty good too.

Those 48" twist TC barrels had .0015 to .004" deep rifling because they were button rifled and as Hal Sharon found out, you cannot cut or impress deep grooves with a button.  Yes - 1 1/2 thou, to 4 thou deep rifling. 

The reason they used a button was for cost effectiveness - buttoned barrels were cheaper to produce and you could produce more per hour than with cut rifled barrels. They were not purposely  made shallow for Maxiballs or any other "bullets". They were made shallow because buttoning was the cheapest method of producing a barrel - in order to keep costs down and profit margins high. This was needed, to support the most excellent warrantee - which was needed.

Later, they designed and sold the Maxiball moulds and started advertising the rifles as made for BOTH!

The barrels were made for round balls - but - most or many do shoot short conicals quite well.  The REAL bullets are better - Maxiballs suck on moose.

The TC Hawkens I had, shot patched round balls very well better than the slugs, however I used a .495" ball and heavy denim that I measured at .022" compressed. That is when I learned about muzzle crowning to allow the ball and patch to conform to the bore and rifling - about 1973, within a year of starting ML shooting.  My mentor was Lester H. Hawks - a new Canadian, formerly of Kalispel, Montana. He'd been shooting ML's for 30 years & knew whereof he spoke.

Here they are- most using "original" rifles.

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2016, 12:35:51 AM »
I'm going to have to disagree. Anytime you use button rifling you sure aren't making it for a PRB. Marlin uses it too on the lever guns and they don't shoot PRB's.

For whatever reason TC decided to use that rifling they had to know it wasn't ideal for a PRB. What rifling does the 1-66 barrels they had that said round ball on the barrel?

I had a few TC's and they shoot the maxi's pretty good. I hate conicals and swapped the barrels out for GM drop in barrels. Now they were good PRB barrels.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2016, 02:00:06 AM »
I'm going to have to disagree. Anytime you use button rifling you sure aren't making it for a PRB. Marlin uses it too on the lever guns and they don't shoot PRB's.

For whatever reason TC decided to use that rifling they had to know it wasn't ideal for a PRB. What rifling does the 1-66 barrels they had that said round ball on the barrel?

I had a few TC's and they shoot the maxi's pretty good. I hate conicals and swapped the barrels out for GM drop in barrels. Now they were good PRB barrels.

I am well aware that TC knew buttoning was not the best for patched round  balls. They used button rifling simply because it was cheaper than cut rifling - I was around then and that is what and why they did it.  Hall Sharon even tried to deep-groove-button rifling back in 1975. I was in his shop in Kalispell when they were doing this - they entire building was shaking.  He said they still shot OK, so I left with a .36cal with .008" deep button rifling.
Remember those old glass wash-boards - that is what it felt like when shoving a patched ball down the tube. WDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD- like driving on a 'wash-board' gravel road in a pickup truck- or anything for that matter.

Then TC got their head together with their advertising department on how can we spin this to our benefit? - they said to make a slug and say it is dual-purpose.

BTW- my TC Hawkens shot very well with patched round balls with it's .004" rifling. Taylor's TC Hawkens rifle, with it's .003" rifling was not as good & shot maxiballs better.  Friend Tommy's TC Hawkens with it's .001 + 1/2thou" rifling shot poorly with both patched round balls and slugs, but the slugs shot passably if paper patched with a cigarette paper. Paper patching was the only way top keep them from sliding out the muzzle, if pointed down. The bore on both of their rifles, were somewhat oversize, hence the shallow rifling.

For a short while, they sold 66" twist barrels with .010" deep cut rifling. They stopped that for some reason - maybe cost.
Daryl

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Offline bones92

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Re: Breaking in (or seasoning) a new barrel
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2017, 07:26:17 PM »
Okay, so I had a chance to shoot the Colerain barrel.   I was using .395" Hornady with both .010 and .015 patches.  I could tell that the patch/ball combo was too loose, as after starting the ball went down very easily.   

Even with .015 pillow ticking, total ball plus patch diameter would be .425".... uncompressed.   Assuming a correct .40" bore, and Colerain advertises .012 grooves, the total would be .424".   

I think the loose patch/ball fit would make for poor accuracy (I wasn't particularly shooting for groups), but I think it also caused a good bit of fouling to build up.

I may just order some thicker pillow ticking and cut patches myself.   Any good suggestions on where to buy it?
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