true-ing up a muzzle

[thecapgunkid]

where do you find the tools/jigs to cut and crown a muzzle?   Anybody got a procedure?  I sure as gravy don't

[Turtle]

 Even if you don't fully cone a muzzle with one of Joe Woods tools, a light touchup to the very tip trues it up well. I have done this many times for people who didn't want a true cone.
                                                  Turtle

[smylee grouch]

Are you asking about making the bore and barrel perpendicular to each other or about putting a crown on the muzzle?

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Here is a tool that was copied from an old original .  It is a muzzle crowning cutter.  Held in a bit brace the cutter is centered in the barrel bore and turned to give a light chamfer to the bore at the muzzle.  Since the tool is spherical, the hand alignment works well.  My problem was that I cut the tool teeth so it must be turned counter - clockwise.  Another one of my bonehead mistakes!  The tool works well and is very easy to use.  After the muzzle chamfer is cut, I use a very fine needle file to remove any bur resulting from the cut.

Jim

[Roger B]

The absolute best way to do this is to send it over to a muzzleloading shop like Pecatonica and have it done on a lathe.  They did some extensive barrel work for me about a year ago that was nothing but beautiful.  If you are working with a rough cut muzzle and don't want to go the machinist route, take a machinist square and go flat to flat on the barrel checking for high places on the muzzle. Mark the high spots and carefully take them down with a good file.  After your muzzle is a true 90 degrees to the barrel flats all the way around, you can use a cone shaped rock in an eggbeater hand drill to cut in the chamfer on your crown.  Don't use an electric hand drill or you will take off too much material and get a lopsided chamfer.  You have to rotate the barrel every few rotations with the rock in order to get a well centered crown.  After that, start polishing with wet or dry sandpaper in decreasing grit until you get a gleaming crown.  Even with a machine crown its a good idea to take some 400 grit under your thumb and polish your crown.  Even with the thumb, rotate the barrel every few seconds of polishing to make sure that the chamfer remains centered.  Start out gently until you get a feel for how much material you are removing.  You might be amazed at how much material you can remove pretty quickly with this technique.
Roger B.

[flehto]

I use a suitably sized ball bearing w/ valve grinding compound.....sure it's slow, but does an accurate job,  Ground 2 flats on the ball  bearing and use Vise Grips to hold and rotate.....Fred 

[thecapgunkid]

Thanks to all of you.  is thetre a tool that will jig a 90degree cut on the muzzle?  I sude an ordinary pipe cutter on a round 28 ga.  and it worked really well except it left a lot to be crowned.

[FDR]

This will work! You might/will  need to make a brass pilot to fit the bore.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/action-bolt-trueing-tools/receiver-facing-cutter-pilots-prod20449.aspx

Fred

[Daryl]

Fro those who have to have the best, foolproof method, the Brownells jig will do it- if care and some modicum of skill is used.

A small square and mill file will also do it as also noted in the answers above.

ONCE the muzzle is square, many times I have use a tapered stone with emery or paper around it to cut a 60 degree angle(or whatever they are), then the old thumb and emery or paper method- which ALWAYS gives a perfectly centred radiused and smooth crown. You simply turn the barrel every 10 seconds or so- it always comes out perfect.

Doing all of the work needed using a lathe is so simple and fast- maybe 3 minutes tops for the whole job.

[Turtle]

 I assume that any shape of the muzzle beyond the very edge of the bore is cosmetic-not an accuracy factor. No proof-just my  thinking.
                               Turtle
                         

[RichG]

buy a round carbide burr from MSC or other machinist supply of appropriate dia.  and chuck it up in your brace or hand drill. no electric as the carbide goes through the soft metals used for barrels very rapidly. just a couple of turns will leave a nice crown.

[jerrywh]

where do you find the tools/jigs to cut and crown a muzzle?   Anybody got a procedure?  I sure as gravy don't

  The original question assumes that "THEY" the so called masters of old, all did it the same way. That is very unlikely. I'm sure "THEY" had as many or more different methods as we do today. In the first place the barrels probably came from a barrel maker and were squared up when received by the gunsmith. Very few gun builders back in the 18th century made their own barrels. Like today it was a money loosing proposition.
  As most of you know squaring up and crowning are two totally different operations. Most of the previously mentioned methods of crowning work fairly well. But for squaring the muzzle with the bore one needs a tool that has a pilot in the bore.  If the bore is not square with the bore the crowning will be off as well if done with a cherry , burr or a ball cutter of any type.  The best method to square up the bore with the muzzle is a tool like Brownel sells or a lathe. It doesn't take a lot of talent to do it with the correct tools. If you have a lathe you can make a muzzle squaring tool with a pilot of brass to go in the bore.

[thecapgunkid]

Thanks, Jerry.  What's the too; from Brownells?

[deepcreekdale]

I use a large carriage bolt with valve grinding compound, turned with a chest drill but a brace would work just as well. The heads of those bolts are around 1 inch across, you can use different sizes for different calibers to give a reasonable crown. Brass or bronze bolts work best. An old gunsmith I worked with years ago, used brass machine screws with slotted heads when he crowned modern target stuff, held extra valve grinding compound he said.  I adapted that idea for muzzle loaders and it works great.

[Ky-Flinter]

This will work! You might/will  need to make a brass pilot to fit the bore.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/action-bolt-trueing-tools/receiver-facing-cutter-pilots-prod20449.aspx

One thought:
70 bucks for the cutter, plus 30 for each pilot size needed.  I'll bet someone with a lathe would square up the muzzle face for a lot less than $100!

Another thought:
If he had a lathe to make the pilot, he could probably just cut the muzzle with his lathe.

-Ron

[jerrywh]

 Midway USA
https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=barrel+facing

[thecapgunkid]

Thanks, Jerrywh, that's my best answer.  Midway.....hmmm

[Hungry Horse]

The best shooting rifle I own was cut off with an abrasive cutter, and crowned with round abrasive stone chucked up in an electric drill. I did ease the bevel the stone left with some fine Emory paper. You should not overthink this. Remember most of the original guns were manufactured with little, or no, precise measuring devices, or machine tools.

  Hungry Horse

[Scota4570]

This is a gunsmithgin forum.  If a person were doing much gunsmithing work at all a lathe is close to a necessity.  An old 10" Southbend lathe is about $1000 these days.  You can crown a muzzle as perfectly as is possible using a lathe. 

I have two lathes.  I use my little Southbend about every week for something.   The larger one is a 13x48 Clausing, I use it less and could do without it.  Not the little 10" though.  Since the younger generation mostly believes unless it is CNC is is junk, you can get good deals on great machines.  Look around. 

[jerrywh]

The best shooting rifle I own was cut off with an abrasive cutter, and crowned with round abrasive stone chucked up in an electric drill. I did ease the bevel the stone left with some fine Emory paper. You should not overthink this. Remember most of the original guns were manufactured with little, or no, precise measuring devices, or machine tools.

  Hungry Horse

      Your best shooting rifle is relative to how good your other ones are. Then there is also just plain luck at times. The barrel makers had devises that would finish the barrels to precision. The muzzle finishing tools that Brownell and Midway USA sells today are little different that what was used in the 1600's. I don't think it can be said that no gunsmiths in the Colonies ever had a lathe when they were very common in Europe. Bartering was done and tools were for sale.
   Not implicate anybody in particular but there seems to be a race to the bottom among some when it comes to quality and perfection in making muzzle loaders.  In the so called days of old it was a race to the top not the bottom. Regardless of how crud some remnants look today the object of most craftsmen in the colonial days was perfection and the desire was to have the most advanced tools. If this were not so we would not be where we are today.   

[Jim Kibler]

This is a gunsmithgin forum.  If a person were doing much gunsmithing work at all a lathe is close to a necessity.  An old 10" Southbend lathe is about $1000 these days.  You can crown a muzzle as perfectly as is possible using a lathe. 

I have two lathes.  I use my little Southbend about every week for something.   The larger one is a 13x48 Clausing, I use it less and could do without it.  Not the little 10" though.  Since the younger generation mostly believes unless it is CNC is is junk, you can get good deals on great machines.  Look around.

A lathe isn't needed much at all for muzzleloading work.  I've made a living at this stuff and only have a small jewler's type lathe for screws and such.  I would venture to say that I could true up a barrel with a file and square or bevel guage and follow it up by crowing with a stone in less time than it could be set up in a four jaw chuck, indicated in and cut.   I don't settle for shotty work either.  No need to make this any harder in my view.

[Scota4570]

Not needed but a major convience.  Lathes are multi taskers.  Many of the tools used by the original gunsmiths were used for only one job.  I don't have enough years left in me to make all of those period correct uni-tasker tools.  Once you get experience running a lathe it is fast.  It will open doors to tasks that could not be done before.   I don't find the set up to be time consuming or tedious.  For me, the lathe is a time saver.  I'd be lost without a lathe.  I do work on modern guns too. 

There are pleanty of ways to do things and get a good result.   

[TgeorgeZ]

I wonder if they ever used a rifling bench to set this up?

[jerrywh]

 Jim Kibler is a great muzzle loading gun builder. IMHO. one of the top ten on the country now.  I always say there are more ways  to get to the grocery store than one, but one way is the best and fastest.  I have had three lathes over the last 46 years. I should have bought a big one to begin with. I could have saved a few thousand dollars. I made three or four complete guns from scratch using a electric drill for a lathe  to make the screws in the 60's.  I'm not talking about Jim now but there are some gun builders who do unsurpassed work. Magnificent works of art. However they do it the hard way. Dave Race  another great gun maker once said he always looked for the hardest way to do something. I think he was joking but it is so true of some others. 
   Jacob Dickert always wished he had a south bend lathe.

[Hungry Horse]

 I always kinda felt that if you just need an excuse to build your own private machine shop, you should be building hot rods, not longrifles. Some of the charm in longrifles at least for me,is the tiny imperfections hand tools leave on the finished product. JMO, everyone has their own way of doing things.

  Hungry Horse