Author Topic: engraving pattern transfer  (Read 6770 times)

Offline L. Akers

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engraving pattern transfer
« on: December 11, 2016, 04:59:09 AM »
I just finished engraving the patchbox for my latest build and tried something new (to me).  For years I have been drawing on matte acetate and transferring the patterns onto wax daubed onto the metal.  This works but I usually manage to smear a good portion of the pattern into an unrecognizable mess during the engraving process.  I tried the xerox/acetone method but had absolutely no luck with that.  For me, I thought if I could draw the pattern directly onto the part that would be the cat's meow.  So, how to do that?  After some thought I bought a bottle of Bic extra coverage Wite Out and covered the parts to be engraved.  I let it dry and then began to draw my patterns.  By golly it worked!  I could even erase and redraw--several times.  I cut my patterns thru the Wite Out and had no trouble with it chipping off.  After engraving, I easily scraped the coating off with a fingernail and a bit of 0000 steel wool.  Wish now I had thought of this 30 years ago.  Just thought I'd pass this along.

Offline STJ1954

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2016, 06:39:39 AM »
Just started to get into light engraving. Looks like to me Dykem, machinist layout fluid, would work for that type of layout. Blue transparent film, wipe clean with lacquer thinner. Dries in a couple minutes.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2016, 03:02:40 PM »
I use white water color paint.
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Offline kutter

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2016, 07:06:42 PM »
I've always just drawn right on the surface with a pencil.
They used to sell stuff called 'Chinese White',,water based water color type brush on stuff to coat the surface. Let it dry and draw on that.
Same idea as the above ideas. I think I used it once in the prior century sometime.I t's still under a pile of stuff on the bench somewhere I'm sure.

To actually transfer an already engraved pattern,,I make a 'pull' with a piece of card stock like a business card. This leaves the pattern embossed in reverse on the card.
Then you can lay that same pattern down on another piece by dabbing the surface to be engrved with wax,,lightly scuffing the card with a charcoal pencil and carefully laying the card down onto the surface. A light burnishing with just your finger transfers the pattern to the new piece.
The embossed pattern in the card is very detailed and can be reused over and over.

To make the 'pull'...Put some wax on the back of the card and light moisten the front that contacts the old engraving (a couple licks does it!). Hold in place and with a burnisher, push the card into the engraving. It only takes a few seconds to cover the pattern. Lift it gently allow it to dry a few minutes and there's your nearly indestructible pattern to re-use.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2016, 09:26:02 PM »
The 'White-out" might be just the ticket!  Like Mike, I use white tempura paint dissolved in water.  I keep it in a cake in a small tin and when I need it, I simply wet a soft brush, rub it on the cake and paint the part.  Let it dry, and draw away.  It doesn't lend itself to erasure though...white out might be better for that.
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Offline longcruise

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2016, 10:18:49 PM »
I have never engraved anything,. But a local guy showed me how he uses a rattle can of flat white on the metal.  Interested in what you actual engravers think of that?
Mike Lee

Offline Chowmi

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2016, 10:30:36 PM »
L. Akers,
you beat me to it, I had been thinking that white out might work but hadn't tried it yet!

I'm glad you found that it works, I'll be off to the shop to get some right away!

Cheers,
Norm
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Chowmi

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Offline T*O*F

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2016, 02:09:32 AM »
White out works but it's hard to get a very thin coat on the metal.  It will rust steel if left on for any period of time.  I did a practice plate and it was a couple of days before I got back to it.  There was rust underneath when I removed it.  Probably not good for polished steel.  Somewhere I got the impression it had ammonia in it.

Flat white paint is good. Just dust it on, don't spray paint it.  It can be removed with acetone.

Women's hair spray is used as a fixative for your pattern.  It keeps you from smearing it.  Again, just dust it on.  If you get it too heavy, it flakes off when you do your cutting.  Can be removed with acetone or lacquer thinner.  It's basically just spray shellac.

Soft gum erasers are better for erasing.  Hold it at a low angle.  Don't use the one on your pencil.  It's too hard.
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Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2016, 04:48:14 PM »
I usually just draw right on the surface with a sharp, soft pencil. If it is a more complex pattern, I dust it with a light coat of flat, clear spray so I don't rub it off while engraving. For some things, like border lines etc, I use a sharp tipped marker. I tried white out a few time, it tends to be bit too thick and sometimes flakes off while working. I understand they have had to change the formula for white out  recently as certain geniuses were sniffing it to get high, maybe that is the reason it doesn't work as well.
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Offline Scota4570

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2016, 07:15:50 PM »
This is my stumbling block to engraving.  I have an air graver, vice, and the other tools needed.  What I don't have is the artistic tallent to draw the pattern freehand.  I have seen videos people engraving freehand.  Some make it look very easy.  It's not.  It is like watching the guy doing portraits at the fair with a sharpie marker.   Amazing but not attainable for me.

I have no tallent for drawing.  I can hower follow a line.  IF I could transfer a photo of a pattern, I think I'd be in business.  LIke paint by numbers.  I have tried several schemes to transfer patterns using lazer printers and ink jet printers, without success.  If anyone has a proven way to do this I'm very interested. 

Offline J Henry

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2016, 07:18:43 PM »
  I use white liquid shoe polish,comes with an applicator,or you can water it down till your happy.

Offline Chowmi

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2016, 07:51:51 PM »
This is my stumbling block to engraving.  What I don't have is the artistic tallent to draw the pattern freehand.  I have seen videos people engraving freehand.  Some make it look very easy.  It's not.  It is like watching the guy doing portraits at the fair with a sharpie marker.   Amazing but not attainable for me.

I have no tallent for drawing.  I can hower follow a line.  IF I could transfer a photo of a pattern, I think I'd be in business.  LIke paint by numbers.  I have tried several schemes to transfer patterns using lazer printers and ink jet printers, without success.  If anyone has a proven way to do this I'm very interested.

Scota4570,
I share the same inability to draw.  I can barely make a nice curved line.  I have begun to follow the advice of all the gun building and engraving books and have started to practice.  I have found that with hard work and practice, I am beginning to be able to draw acceptable tendrils and leaves.  It has taken a concerted effort, and time, but I am beginning to see the fruits of my labor.    I am also comforted by looking closely at some of the engraving done on early longrifles.  It's not always great, and even sometimes the forms of the tendrils, leaves etc aren't even that good.  it's the overall design that works well. 
I will probably never achieve the level of drawing required to match some of the contemporary makers, but that's okay with me.  I like the folksiness of the old guns, flaws and all. 
Give it a try, you might surprise yourself, as I have.

To stray back closer to the topic:  When I finish polishing the lock on my Kibler SMR, I will inlet and engrave the patch box on my Isaac Haines.  Fortunately, for this one I will be copying an existing Haines patch box.  I plan to experiment with white out, per this topic. 
I am still working to find a good way to transfer the pattern.  I have sized a picture of the original, and may trace that, and then use carbon paper.  I'll post my progress when I do it. 

Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline dogcatcher

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2016, 08:47:19 PM »
  I use white liquid shoe polish,comes with an applicator,or you can water it down till your happy.

I do the same but I also add some liquid Mop N Glo floor wax to the shoe polish.  I think the Mop N Glo helps to keep the white shoe polish in place.  It also helps when I need to erase, in short it seems to make the shoe polish more durable.   I mixed about 75/25 shoe polish to wax, and keep it in a glass jar.  Apply with throw away foam brushes.

Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2016, 09:03:21 PM »
I was taught to make the drawing on paper... then glue or tape the paper to the object, then use a needle size punch to prick marks into the metal right through the paper... that way you just connect the dots... if you accidentally brush across your work you don't loose the lines. Also works for jeweler's saw work.


Offline JTR

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2016, 10:30:29 PM »
Just use Tom Whites' Transfer magic solution for quick, easy design transfers! Once you practice a bit, you'll get 100% results every time, no muss, no fuss, no beating your head wondering what you did wrong again!

True, the stuff is 45 bucks a bottle for the white color, and you need a few sheets of Transparency Film, but unless you're engraving with a rock and a nail, you already have a lot more invested than that. So what's a few more bucks to get consistent transfer results.

Follow the link for the stuff; http://www.twdesignshone.com/

Follow the link for instructions on use; http://users.commspeed.net/ttwhite/xtransc.htm

I use an HP 7510 Photosmart printer with 564 print cartridges, and set the printer to Transparency. For Transparency's; 3M Multipurpose Transparency Film, CG6000.

John
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 10:33:12 PM by JTR »
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Offline Curtis

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2016, 08:25:53 AM »
Like TOF, I have had good experiences using cheap whit spray paint, just a light dusting and let it dry thoroughly.  Quick, easy and cheap, easy to remove when done.  Usually will come off while sanding the burs.

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Offline jerrywh

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2016, 11:02:15 PM »
 Professonal engravers have been using whiteout for many years. However most people don't know exactly how it is supposed to be applied. It is nothing but white water color.  It should be applied in a very thin coat and actually looks like a light gray on the metal when applied as intended. Most of the professional engravers I know never use it.
  There are at least a half dozen ways to do transfers. The most advanced method is done with a transparency film print.  That is too complicated for what most muzzle loading engravers want to do. You can transfer with scotch tape or acetate film or the card method as described by Kutter. There is also a method done with acetone and a printed pattern. Then there is a wax transfer with graphite or etchers ink. 
  Depending on the job at hand I use about 4 of these different methods.  I never use Chinese white.
 A few years back there was a great engraver named Frank Hendrix. One of the worlds greatest in my opinion. He said he just put a very thin coat of plain oil on the metal and drew right on the metal. I do that a lot and it works great.  Some of these methods are described in the book [ the art of engraving]
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2016, 11:24:16 PM »
I'm far from a great engraver, but I did talk a bit about pattern transfer in a previous blog entry. http://www.jimkibler.net/blog/previous/3

Scroll down about half way to see the post.

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2016, 07:34:19 PM »
In response to Scota regarding waterslide transfers. I have a lot of experience with them although not with engraving. It might work well, especially to transfer smaller more detailed designs, but they are EXTREMELY fragile and can be difficult to position exactly where you want without wrinkling and folding over. Todays waterslide transfer papers, as opposed to the old decals we used on model kits when we were younger, are incredibly thin, often only a few microns thick. Anything larger than an inch or 2 square can be difficult to slide into position properly unless the surface is perfectly smooth, ie like a mirror. In order to not deteriorate during the engraving process, it would need to have some fixative such as spray lacquer applied, which isn't that big of a deal. After wetting the transfer, and before applying, brush on some vinegar, for some reason it is "wetter" than water and will allow the transfer to slide easier. After it is applied where you want, brush on some alcohol, (the rubbing kind, not your good scotch) and allow to dry, then apply the fixative to seal it. You can also purchase specially made liquids made just for these jobs at any decent hobby shop pretty cheaply. It should be durable enough to hold up while you engrave. If someone can try it, let us know. Hope this stimulates some thinking.
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Offline David Rase

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2016, 07:57:17 PM »
I second JTR's recommendation on using Tom White's Transfer Magic.  I have both the white and clear and prefer the clear over the white.  Either method you choose will give you great results.  Transfer paper and ink is crucial to being successful so you might have to experiment a bit for best results.  Once you find the right combination you will never go back to your old ways.  I have an HP printer like John and was fortunate to acquire a life time supply of Epson transparency film.
David

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: engraving pattern transfer
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2016, 02:47:50 AM »
I use flat white enamel primer from the auto parts store. I rattle can the part to be engraved, draw my pattern on with a soft lead pencil, and start engraving. When I'm finished I drop the engraved part into a plastic container filled with Castol super cleaner, or the generic copy, and let it soak over night. The next morning the paint washes off with water. Fast, easy, cheap, works for me.

  Hungry Horse