southern mountain rifle details

[WyomingWhitetail]

I'm hoping I can start a basic discussion on the details of late flint period southern mountain rifles. The interest obviously stems from the fact that I'm working on my first rifle right now and the basic inspiration is a very late flint period mountain rifle, but I would also enjoy the discussion in general.

The details on my rifle are a 13/16 straight barrel in 45, a chambers late ketland lock and a precarved stock that I traded into. The stock has a rounded cheek piece instead of the traditional square one which is why I'm shooting for a very late flint period style or even a flint built well into the percussion period. Now I don't know if a flint mountain rifle was ever built with a rounded check piece quite like this but I'm going with it.

Some of the areas I would like to discuss would be

number of lock bolts, due to the 13/16 barrel I'm using I think I'm going to use only one lock bolt. It seems that this did occur but was not real common. When using one lock bolt are there ever any lugs or hooks or other hidden fastener at the front of the lock plate?

Use of wood screws. Were wood screws common on later southern mtn rifles in the tangs, trigger plates, and trigger guards. It seems the preferred method was a through bolt for the tang, but wood screws are not unheard of. Just curious if this trait might be more or less prevalent on the SMR.

With trigger guards, from what I have read it seems the later guns were mostly screwed on vs pinned lugs?

The attachment of the trigger plate I imagine would depend on the tang attachment.

Tang final shape? My tang will not be an overly long tang or a lollipop tang. It seems other late flint guns typically tapered to a point vs the earlier flared and square ended tangs. What about single bolt tangs on SMR?

Triggers, from what I have read and heard it seems that a double set trigger is almost required on a SMR. I would like to entertain the thought of a simple trigger on my rifle for hunting purposes. Are there specific time periods for a simple trigger pinned through the wood, vs simple trigger with a plate lug, vs double set triggers.

If anybody has any pointers or general construction suggestions for forged trigger gaurds and buttplates I would be interested as well. I think I may attempt to forge out a trigger guard and butt plate instead of using the cast ones I have.

Again just looking forward to some general discussion on these details. I'm not holding myself to a particularly strict HC/PC build but I do enjoy discussion and learning something new. I also apologize if all this has been covered before. I also realize that the southern guns are very diverse so some of this discussion may not have conclusions. I have also looked through the southern guns in this sites library but that's still a pretty small sample size and not all details are discussed in depth.

Thanks

[Dennis Glazener]

When using one lock bolt are there ever any lugs or hooks or other hidden fastener at the front of the lock plate?

I have never seen any on the ones I have looked at. I personally believe most mountain makers used one bolt for convenience sake and I can't imagine one going to the trouble of making a hidden fastener.

Were wood screws common on later southern mtn rifles in the tangs, trigger plates, and trigger guards

Most mountain rifles I have seen used screws and did not have through the wrist bolts.
I think maybe some of the TN rifles used a combination of wood screw and cross pin on TG's .

Some trigger plates had wood screws, some had no screws at all, held in by a notch in the TG and by the finger guard or the tip of the trigger main spring screw pressing against the TG.

I see more swamped barrels on mountain rifles than I have straight barrels but that probably has to do with whether they are hand forged or factory made. I guess that would depend on your thoughts on "late flints".
Dennis


Dennis

[WyomingWhitetail]

Thank you for the information.  It is also my understanding that most barrels were swamped and heavier than this 13/16 barrel. Since this is my first build I'm going with the straight barrel for simplicity.

The info about the wood screw in the tang is pretty interesting.

[JCKelly]

My (often faulty) arithmetic says 13/16 across the flats and a 5/8" (10/16") breech plug leaves about 3/32" thick metal to hold things together. Good luck.

A 1/2x13 plug might be nice.

Just bein' a Pain In The A-- engineer again.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have only seen a couple hundred original rifles, but none of them had a barrel that was anywhere close to 13/16".  I will never again build a rifle  with that skinny a barrel.

[WyomingWhitetail]

The barrel is quite thin. Way thinner than most originals but its what i bought when i started this project and thats what the stock fits. On future builds i would like to go to swamped barrels. It's a green mountain barrel and it's generally accepted that the 13/16 barrels in 45 are safe. I don't remember if the plug is 9/16 or 5/8 I would have to measure it.

Although being a mechanical engineer myself or at least I was of a few weeks ago. It seems the shear area of the threads would be much more critical in the breech plug area. Now ahead of the plug the wall thickness would be critical obviously to prevent the barrel swelling or bursting but in this area the walls are much thicker (13/16-.45). The amount of hoop stress behind the face of the plug due to chamber pressure doesn't seem like it would be high. I would have to think about it some more but I'm sure this has likely been discussed across the Internet before.

[bama]

I built a SMR using  a GM 13/16" 45 cal barrel and it was a very nice handling and accurate rifle. I built this rifle in left hand with an L&R lock, Davis double set triggers, cast Carolina guard, hand forged butt plate, thimbles and nose cap. A really great and slim rifle.

[Dennis Glazener]

My (often faulty) arithmetic says 13/16 across the flats and a 5/8" (10/16") breech plug leaves about 3/32" thick metal to hold things together. Good luck.

A 1/2x13 plug might be nice.

Just bein' a Pain In The A-- engineer again.

JC,
If those old mountain gun makers had engineering degrees they might have designed them differently. Being poor old mountain craftsmen they used wood screws. I don't remembering seeing any problems other than stripped threads being replaced by bigger screws!
Dennis

[WyomingWhitetail]

I've heard from several people that the 13/16 barrel makes a fine handling rifle which is the reason I picked it in the first place.

All the little details of these rifles really are facinating such as the use of wood screws instead of bolts. One thing that really intrigues me in the number of double triggers on southern guns. Seems like the simple single trigger would have been so much easier. Maybe it stems from competitive shooting as a pass time?

[Mike Brooks]

You need to buy some books on the subject and go to some gun shows. "Southern Mountain guns" covers such a great area there is no wrong or right answer to any of your questions. Guns made in specific areas had peculiar traits not seen in other areas. There were "Schools" like in PA. and elsewhere.
There are some wonderful books available now that weren't available 20 years ago.

[WyomingWhitetail]

Actually that is one question I forgot. What are some good books on the southern mountain guns? I've heard of some by Jerry Noble (?) but I can't find any information on them any where. What are some other ones?

[hudson]

I built a Bean rifle a couple of years ago using a 13/16 40 cal. Barrel, made a nice handling rifle. First build with a full stock, normally stay in a later period. The barrel was G.M., Stock pre carved and most major parts from Pecatonica River. Plans were a package of southern mountain rifles from the Log Cabin Shop, coppices from originals. Probably not totally correct and cap lock, just a thought.

[Bob Roller]

You need to buy some books on the subject and go to some gun shows. "Southern Mountain guns" covers such a great area there is no wrong or right answer to any of your questions. Guns made in specific areas had peculiar traits not seen in other areas. There were "Schools" like in PA. and elsewhere.
There are some wonderful books available now that weren't available 20 years ago.

Leonard Meadows of Shady Springs WV made a Southern style rifle for me in the Spring of 1965.
I gave him a 13/16x44"Bill Large barrel in 45 caliber,lock and triggers of my own make an a butt
plate,trigger guard and thimble from a ruined antique gun and Len had a piece of black walnut
and he made a very fine and fine handling rifle from these components.I liked this rifle as much
as the elegant Whitworth semi military match rifle that hung on the rack with it. Two VERY contrasting
approaches of gun making for sure.
Cecil Adkins who was a transmission repair specialist had an antique American made SxS rifle with
barrels a bit under 13/16. Both locks were missing and I told him to get two caplocks from Jim
Chambers and then a local builder,Tom Nixon put it all together for him.This gun was well made
but no name was found. It has a walnut full length stock.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

When using one lock bolt are there ever any lugs or hooks or other hidden fastener at the front of the lock plate?

I have never seen any on the ones I have looked at. I personally believe most mountain makers used one bolt for convenience sake and I can't imagine one going to the trouble of making a hidden fastener.

Were wood screws common on later southern mtn rifles in the tangs, trigger plates, and trigger guards

Most mountain rifles I have seen used screws and did not have through the wrist bolts.
I think maybe some of the TN rifles used a combination of wood screw and cross pin on TG's .

Some trigger plates had wood screws, some had no screws at all, held in by a notch in the TG and by the finger guard or the tip of the trigger main spring screw pressing against the TG.

I see more swamped barrels on mountain rifles than I have straight barrels but that probably has to do with whether they are hand forged or factory made. I guess that would depend on your thoughts on "late flints".
Dennis


Dennis

Late period?? Those guns were still being cobbled together in the 1920's according to Walter Cline.
Like every other hand made item,there are few EXACTLY alike if examined closely and I like to say
there wasn't even one of these rifles alike. The stark simplicity and plain,unadorned appearance is
the appeal to me.It;s a K.I.S.S. gun.

Bob Roller

[Turtle]

 To piggyback and add to this question, I am considering adding a sideplate to my Gillispie I got components for from Dennis G. I finished it in a hurry for deer season with no sideplate. it has 2 screws. I know there are lots of options.
                                         Thanks, Turtle

[Ky-Flinter]

Actually that is one question I forgot. What are some good books on the southern mountain guns? I've heard of some by Jerry Noble (?) but I can't find any information on them any where. What are some other ones?

Several are listed here: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=451.0

And from  http://www.americanlongrifles.org/Books_frame.htm  there are these:

Guns and Gunmaking Tools of Southern Appalachia: The Story of the Kentucky Rifle by John Rice Irwin.  This little perfect bound paperback book is primarily a pictorial review of the guns, gun making tools, and gun makers of southern Appalachia.   There is a concentration on the late 19th and early 20th century.   Do to the popularity of chunk gun shooting in southern Appalachia,  the production of longrifles never ceased there.  Check on eBay or Amazon.

Notes on Southern Long Rifles (Volumes 1, 2, 3 & 4) by Jerry Noble.   These simple paper bound books are a collection of original photos and historic documentation of the longrifles, builders, and marksmen of southern Appalachia.   Just about all the guns and pictures are from the 19th century  and early 20th century.   There is a lot about the chuck gun culture.   However,  anyone interested in southern guns, particularly chunk guns,  should have these books.  They may be ordered directly from Jerry Noble at 414 N.E. 7th Ave.,  Aledo,  IL.   His phone number is (309) 582-2852.  The books are $32 each. 

The Gillespie Gun Makers of East Fork, NC by T. Dennis Glazener.   Dennis has added to our knowledge of southern longrifles by publishing this well researched paperback on his ancestors and the guns they made.   This is primarily a genealogical work on the Gillespie gun making family with some good pictures of a number of the Gillespie rifles. Second edition now available in color. Order directly from T. Dennis Glazener at 917 Manakin Rd., Midlothian, VA   23113.   His phone number is (804) 794-4863 and his e-mail address is tdg23113@verizon.net or website www.GillespieRifles.com **Edited by Dennis Glazener 12/13/16**

Three good books on North Carolina rifles by C. Michael Briggs. These three books contain great photos of NC rifles and horns that have not been published by anyone else. Michaels email address is mbriggs@callcoverage.com.

1. The Longrifles of Guilford County $30.00 plus $3.00 Postage -
contains 52 pages of detailed color photographs of Guilford Longrifles
that have not been previously published.

2. The Longrifles of Forsyth County and Davidson County $20.00 plus
$2.00 postage - contains 25 pages of detailed color photographs of
Salem/Davidson Longrifles that have not been previously published.

3. Piedmont North Carolina Banded Powder Horns $30.00 plus $3.00 postage
- contains 48 pages of detailed color photographs of Piedmont North
Carolina Banded & Beehived Powder Horns, Hunting Bags and accoutrements.


BTW, welcome to ALR.

-Ron

[WyomingWhitetail]

Thanks you so much for the information on the books, I will have to file that information away so I can slowly add to my book collection. I actually have the one by Irwin and it is quite interesting. The simple iron mounted rifles just hold my interest for some reason and I think this rifle will be a very fine handling rifle as long as I don't screw it up to bad.

[Mike Brooks]

To piggyback and add to this question, I am considering adding a sideplate to my Gillispie I got components for from Dennis G. I finished it in a hurry for deer season with no sideplate. it has 2 screws. I know there are lots of options.
                                         Thanks, Turtle

You have several correct choices. Look into D. Glazener's book listed above.

[Dennis Glazener]

Don't forget to look at our listing of newer books: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=451.0

Dennis

[Marcruger]

Don't forget Bill Ivey's full color tome on NC Longrifles.  Fantastic book.  Worth the pennies. 

[WadePatton]

Here's my personal definition of "SMR": a rifle that looks a lot like a TN, but with 2 or more "definitive TN" features missing.  Some features can go more than one way on a TN, but if too many go "otherwise" then I'm inclined to throw the SMR label at it.  Unless of course it's an original TN, then I just call it "odd" and keep going. 

Now I had to develop my own definition of TN rifles when I began my studies, and it's an ongoing thing, but am fairly settled on my parameters now. I'd list them here but don't care to shift the thread topic.

[DBoone]

Many of our pre-conceived notions about the SMR today, I think, come from the fact that most of the ones being built today are made with the small barrels.....so that they will be light and easy to carry. 

Also, we have to consider that a barrel being handforged 200 years ago would have been done so with the man forging the barrel thinking things like, "are my welds good?"....."will this barrel be safe?"...."will the barrel be thick enough to fresh out to a larger caliber?", ect.  Today we have excellent barrels steel that is safe, has no welds and is more durable than wrought iron. 

Also, (and we hate to admit this...) most men today are not of the pure, raw physical quality that the men of that day were.  Our modern rifles have spoiled us to the point that we consider an ill-balanced rifle over 7 lbs. to be heavy.  Most originals that I have restored/studied were usually 10-12 pounds.

If you throw most of the original SMR's to your shoulder they will feel very awkward and not very enticing to hunt with all day.  It's all in what you get use to.  Carry one like the originals everyday for a month or 2 and I think you will get in shape for it.  But, here again, we have a choice that maybe they did not.

I always yield to those I consider experts on this subject... like Dennis Glazner, Mike Brooks, and many other very knowledgeable builders/collectors on the ALR.  We have a wealth of knowledge, experience and a great willingness to share on this site.

[Daryl]

Heavier guns were not restricted to the Americas.  A hunting weight rifle for the Indian or African theaters, meant to light enough to be carried all day by the hunter himself, was 9 1/2 to 10 pounds and usually had 2 barrels. "Singles should be 9 1/2 pounds" so the recoil of these 16 to 12 bore rifles was light enough as not to "disrupt the hunter's aim from him "shirking" from  the  recoil. This meant they needed to be heavy enough to prevent flinching, in modern terms. Apparently, 9 1/2 pounds was all that was necessary, in 1850. Today, this is felt to be excessively heavy in rifle weight. 

 

[TMerkley]

Heavier guns were not restricted to the Americas.  A hunting weight rifle for the Indian or African theaters, meant to light enough to be carried all day by the hunter himself, was 9 1/2 to 10 pounds and usually had 2 barrels. "Singles should be 9 1/2 pounds" so the recoil of these 16 to 12 bore rifles was light enough as not to "disrupt the hunter's aim from him "shirking" from  the  recoil. This meant they needed to be heavy enough to prevent flinching, in modern terms. Apparently, 9 1/2 pounds was all that was necessary, in 1850. Today, this is felt to be excessively heavy in rifle weight.

Unfortunately, Our society is now in the mindset that anything "heavy" is not healthy.  At that time, a man was 2-3x stronger than the average man.  Teenage boys were stronger than most "average" men today.  120lbs sack of grain was pickup and shouldered with one hand by one of my family members back in the 1930's.  For me a 9-10lbs rifle is fine, but for others, I can't say much. At least for the 30-40 year olds

[JTR]

I have three originals; two weigh 9 pounds each and one weighs almost 8 pounds. And most that I've looked at seem to be around this weight as well.
John