Author Topic: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?  (Read 15465 times)

Offline Bluesmoke

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Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« on: December 14, 2016, 02:42:58 AM »
I am seeing daisy cut round ball patches advertised on an internet muzzle loading retailing site. Being well away (Australia) from places where these new patches may be easy to get, its prudent to investigate if they are truly effective. Of course,on the retail site, there are the usual recommendations by happy customers etc, but being cautious I am inclined to seek a wider range of opinions.

Obviously the plus is that the patches cut in the fashion of a daisy, fold up much  easier when the ball is forced down the muzzle  and therefore would produce fewer pressure points against the wall of the barrel. In turn that must equate to much less friction, a good thing.

On the negative it means I can't make my own with out a  specific shaped cutting punch and must rely on importing regular supplies on these patches from your country.Stated thickness sizing seems to be unreliable as well.

Given that I will probably may  shoot 2500 balls in the coming year it a fairly big commitment to make on the basis of scant information.

The question is the change from standard patches to daisy cut patches big enough to make a change - does it mean increased a quantifiable  increase in accuracy.


To give you  an idea what is  involved dollar wise, the patches at $3.41 a hundred end up with postage/shipping and exchange rate factored in would cost $175Au or there about, for a years supply.

For a retired person on fixed income its a fair amount of money, so caution motivates my actions.
The equivalent number of my local round self stamped patches would run to a $25Au  ignoring my labour.

Your opinions and/or experiences with this new product will be valued.

Thanks
Bluesmoke

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2016, 02:48:57 AM »
IF they proved to be worthwhile it would be less expensive to have a die made in you country and cut your own.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2016, 04:57:12 AM »
I was curious and tried them. I tried not to like them because they don't fit in with my doing everything like the fur trade era.

As hard as I tried to not like them I failed. They work good. They load easier and seem to be more consistent in accuracy.

Offline EC121

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2016, 06:04:33 AM »
The ones I tried were such a loose weave that they blew apart on firing.  I never got to the accuracy part after I found them shredded.   They advertised a tight weave but it looked like heavy cheesecloth.  In your supply situation I would cut V notches in the round ones with something and get the same effect.  A V chisel or scissors should work to try a few to see if it is worth it.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 06:12:28 AM by EC121 »
Brice Stultz

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2016, 06:08:54 PM »
I tried the pillow ticking versions. They held up fine.

Offline kudu

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2016, 07:27:11 PM »
I tried them in my .40 cal and also found the "weave" to be too loose and they did not work well for me. I also was getting burn Thru on the fabric. I also doubled them up and it seemed to help but I decided to stick with a nice denium patch.

 I live close enough to Freindship ID and have talked with some top shooters and most would say "keep it simple as possible and do it exactly the same every time"- and you will be near the top more often than not.

Offline Bluesmoke

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2016, 02:57:04 AM »
Thank you gentlemen,

Your comments have been noted and I will will try the idea of notching the already round patches.

I am off to the fabric shop ( with micrometer in hand) as a letterbox flyer has an ad for ticking,which is both expensive and not seen real often in my neck of the woods.

I talked to a toolmaker I know and he reckons the cost of making a dedicated punch would be substantial.

Thank you all kindly I shall report on my findings.

If I don't get back here for a while have a great Xmas and New Years

Bluesmoke

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2016, 03:13:17 AM »
I did not find them to be worthwhile. 

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2016, 03:43:26 AM »
...
I live close enough to Freindship ID and have talked with some top shooters and most would say "keep it simple as possible and do it exactly the same every time"- and you will be near the top more often than not.

Yes. 

AND the most entirely difficult, last task to master is launching that ball into the same wind direction and speed-every time.

TRICKY TRICKY TRICKY!  :P
Hold to the Wind

Smoketown

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2016, 04:08:59 AM »
Bluesmoke,

Order some and see if they work for you.

Then, don't get too wrapped up with thinking that you will MUST have a die maker make a die ...

Do it yourself!

Get a hole saw or better yet, a "used-up" core drill from someone who drills in concrete. (Heavier wall thickness.)

Lay a patch template of your choosing on a 1/2" steel plate and dam/block around the edges of the patch with misc. round, flat or square stock tacked in place while flaring slightly at the top. (Welding the pieces on the outside will automatically do that for you.)

Heat the end of the saw/drill and push/drive it down into your form to shape it. (An arbor press if you have access to one works great.)

Then if needed, a bit of hand blacksmithing if you want it near perfect.

Clean and sharpen the cutting edge and you're done.

Mount your new die in the above mentioned arbor press and you can cut a really thick pile of patches (or heavy gasket material  ;) )

Then again, you can screw a bolt into the back of the core drill and drive it with a large lead hammer to cut patches.

If it's substantial, you 'can' also use your un-plugged drill press as a light arbor press.

Personally, I have not been too impressed with the with the 'daisies' over regular round patches.

A strip of lubed patching across the muzzle and a started ball then cutting the patching off at the muzzle gives you a perfectly centered patch which in my case shoot no better than the round ones if reasonable care is used when loading.

Just remember if your 'daisy' gets askew while loading, you will suffer blow-by and really poor accuracy.   ::)

Of course, your milage may vary.

Cheers,
Smoketown









Offline Bluesmoke

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2016, 02:30:08 PM »
G day Smoketown,

I have made my own circular punches before  but baulked at this daisy cut pattern. Of course a hole should saw  would ok as it would have to be L6 or similar grade material  and should heat treat well enough to cut cloth.

I will post a pic of a homemade punch in the shop made tools section. Thanks for the suggestion, that's thinking out side the box.

I am working on a forge but its nowhere near completed but its a good reason to double my efforts over Christmas break. I have no arbor press but a 30 Ton hydraulic press may do the trick using a  slab of delrin to press into.  Thats what I use as for hand punching.

Concentric patch to barrel  is no problem. I made a patch block loader from hardwood. It has a shallow bored cut with an 1 1/4" spade bit that is centered on the drill size for the .535 ball.
The circular patch fits in the counter bore and the ball is pressed in with fingers and short started home automatically finding center.

To be honest I don't think it has made a dramatic difference.

Thanks for the idea

I will try to report back after new years.

In the mean time I shall be trying some a similar patch( but reportedly much better quality from another maker.

Thanks for helping with the idea.
Bluesmoke

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2016, 06:31:07 PM »
...
I am working on a forge but its nowhere near completed but its a good reason to double my efforts over Christmas break. I have no arbor press but a 30 Ton hydraulic press may do the trick using a  slab of delrin to press into.  Thats what I use as for hand punching.
...
Thanks for helping with the idea.
Bluesmoke

Hey I think it's great that you're digging in and tooling up to make these patches, even though I don't expect any measurable benefit.  You may find some real or unexpected benefit that we-the naysayers in this case, would never know.  Good on ya' for the efforts.  DOING is learning, and TYPEing is cheap  :P.   Carry on!

« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 06:32:35 PM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2016, 08:09:53 PM »
We aren't all naysayers. You just need to get the PT version.

You can even buy them lubed with bear grease.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 08:10:55 PM by OldMtnMan »

Offline Daryl

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2016, 10:16:54 PM »
Paying for someone to cut and package material for cleaning or shooting, is not cost effective.

Cutting your own cleaning and shooting patches, however, is.

It is possible, however, that some people put such a high price on their time, any of their time, that they feel the reverse is true. So be it.

I cut my own patches, for shooting and for cleaning ML's for 2 reasons - #1 - it's cheaper, and #2, I cannot buy pre-cut materials suitable for MY needs.  The word "suitable" is the stickler here.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2016, 11:14:42 PM »
I normally cut at the muzzle. As I said though, I did try the daisy patches and thought they worked good.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2016, 01:39:09 AM »
I have an opinion on this, naturally!

I think that the OP is overthinking the benefits and disadvantages of 'daisy patches'.  Further, I believe buying precut patches is a waste of time, money, lead and powder.  There are none that I have found that work anywhere near as well as my home made pre-cuts, or strip patching cut on the muzzle.  That is not to mention their cost.  The yard goods store will have several samples of appropriate material that will give your rifle its optimum accuracy.  And there is always someone willing to make your patches and charge you for them to increase his wealth.

Not for me.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Maven

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2016, 02:35:09 AM »
What Taylor said!  Also, wouldn't you think that after 200+ years of patched round ball shooting that the alleged advantages of "daisy cut patches" would have been apparent by now?  Additionally, Mike Nesbitt promoted these last year in an article ("Plunder" or "Prime Possibles"?) in Muzzleloader magazine a year or so ago and surprise, surprise, their manufacturer was, and perhaps still is, an advertiser in that magazine.  No empirical data were cited, btw.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 06:05:26 PM by Maven »
Paul W. Brasky

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2016, 02:43:56 AM »
i don't like dealing with loose, pre-cut patches, nor do i trust that i can lay 'em on the muzzle in a concentric fashion. 

yeah, i only used lubed patch strips.  gives me a solid reason to carry a patch knife for more than looking period correct. 

ymmv.

Offline bgf

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2016, 03:26:54 AM »
I was confusing these Daisy patches with the cloverleaf patches produced by the Lehigh valley lube company.  I talked to that guy at Friendship and it seemed he had put a great deal of thought and effort into the cloverleaf patches, not only the design but also in finding appropriately quality controlled materials for each thickness.  He didn't have anything over 20 thousandths or I would try them for my chunk gun.

I guess if I was interested in the Daisy patches, I'd try the cloverleaf ones too.



Offline EC121

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2016, 03:50:42 AM »
In looking at the ads for October Country's daisy cut patches on their website, you can see that the weave is really loose.  Lehigh's aren't any better.  I'll pass.
Brice Stultz

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2016, 04:02:30 AM »
This weave looks open?



Offline EC121

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2016, 05:31:33 AM »
Those don't, but if you look at the un-lubed, non-ticking patches they are loose.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 05:33:34 AM by EC121 »
Brice Stultz

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2016, 06:11:03 AM »
I know. That's why I said to try the PT patches. I agree the regular cotton patches are bad.

I buy my bulk PT material from October. It's consistent in size and already washed ready to use. I live in a small town with no fabric store that carries PT material.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 06:13:47 AM by OldMtnMan »

Lee44shootercnb

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2016, 12:49:22 AM »
I go to Hobby Lobby and purchase their fabric. In the Sunday paper they always have a 40% off coupon.
 http://www.hobbylobby.com/Fabric-Sewing/Apparel-Fabrics/Twill-Fabric/Navy-Blue-Ticking-Stripe-Fabric/p/154506

Fabric is 44" wide .
I cut it in 1 yard lengths x 1 1/4" wide.
Place it on the muzzle with ball. Push ball/fabric down barrel with thumb or stater.  When top of ball is even with barrel end,then cut off excess with sharp pocket knife
Done.  Has worked for years.  Cut a little wider for the 58 cal Springfield
If I am lucky ...from time to time fabric is on sale or you can get discount for short yardage on roll. Choice of colors.  I like the blue.
Have a GREAT Christmas
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 12:51:49 AM by Lee44shootercnb »

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2016, 01:18:26 AM »
I have had good luck going to pawn shops and buying used hole saws of various sizes, grind the teeth off and put an edge on the out side and you have a fairly good patch maker.