Improving Efficiency

[goodtime7]

This may be more of a philosophical question than one of practicality.   Have built a few rifles from shaped stocks, a "kit" or two before that, and am now finishing up my first attempt from a blank.  Fortunately, this is a hobby and not a full time job, or I would be one hungry guy!   I say that because I think my efficiency is pretty low.  I still enjoy the work, but would like to tackle some other flintlock projects too.   For those of you who have several projects under your belt, do remember some hints/ideas that may have been of help if you were in a similar situation??  Have addressed the issues of sharp tools, good light, bench and vice. Etc.   I realize that you must "pay your dues", but would like to work smarter if possible.....   thanks.  Best in the New Year.     Bruce

[retired fella]

My 2 cents for what it's worth is go slow and think everything out.  The less mistakes means less time correcting them.

[Jerry V Lape]

I am not much different than you with regard to efficiency.  And I doubt I will ever be speedy at this as it is not important to me.  None the less I have done a couple things which I believe will pay dividends later.  First, get the right tool for each task.  Struggling to adapt the wrong tool to the job is definitely unsatisfying and slower than need be.  Second is to make jigs which will make it easier to repeat certain routine things like marking out pin and wedge placements and drilling guide for the holes.  Most important of all is to pay someone with the correct setup to inlet barrel and ramrod hole.  I now have lexan patterns for stocks, sideplates, and thimbles, trigger plates. 

[jerrywh]

I don't work for efficiency. I work for money. I have found that too many people are trying to make money by competing for the same market share.  You can't make a lot of money off of people who don't have much. You can't compete with TC. CVA, Cabellas, Pedersoli, and that class and make any money.  There are thousands of custom muzzle loading gun makers now who make average priced guns. It takes about three times as long to make a gun that will sell for 10 times the price of the average gun or more. It will pay to learn to obtain the skills required. If I were young I could make about $200,000.00 pr. year making high grade guns.  Now I just play around at it.
  Otherwise it is a good hobby if you have another income. That's reallity. Learn skill not speed.
 Talent is acquired by study and practice.

[SingleMalt]

I came up with my own "order of building," and follow it. It's helped, but I could never make a living at this. 

[jerrywh]

 There are 13,445 people in California alone who are worth 500 million dollars or more. That number goes up every year. That is the market to aim for. They don't buy their guns at Walmart.  Learn to make guns for them.

[conquerordie]

I've only built one gun that I planned on selling. From start to finishing hated the project. Since it was for making money I felt that I had to get it done faster than my normal snails pace. I also never made a connection with this particular gun. I never felt interested in it. Finished it, sold it, and never want to do it again.
I'm like the OP, still finding a way to do things more efficiently. I try different order of construction, or different tools, or even making tools for a particular task. Its slows me down even more, but I get so much more out of it. I admire guys that build quickly and sell quickly. Its just not me.

[Mark Elliott]

I work mostly with hand tools and am pretty slow.   I wish I knew how to work faster.   The guys at the Gunshop in Colonial Williamsburg claim to build an all handmade rifle in just a little more time than it takes me to make a carved and engraved rifle with a commercial lock and barrel.   Even though, I know I could be faster, I have a hard time believing that they are that much faster than me.   I keep careful track of my time  and am pretty sure of my numbers.    I track everything including each application of finish, each rub out, sighting in sessions (with travel time), cleanings, waxings, and delivery.   I have to wonder if others are all that diligent about tracking their labor inputs.   I suspect that doing so, might depress a lot of builders when they realize just how little they are earning an hour.   

[thecapgunkid]

stop worrying about it and enjoy the process.  When I learned to ride a horse and shoot my sixgun at the same time, I had to stop overhtinking and just do it.

When I make shoes, I flip them for cost recovery and to induce a food bank donation from my customers.  That's work, so I am efficient.

When I make a rifle, even if I flip it, that's a hobby so  I have to set the mind to relax and go slow so I don't have to answer to St. Joseph for impatient mistakes.

Happy New Year and,

Don't shoot yore eye out, kid

The Capgun Kid

[oldtravler61]

   To me the biggest hurdle in this. If you intend to sell your guns. You have to get established as a gun maker. Everything else is second place. Most buyer's that I know of don't expect the gun in a week or two. They know that quality takes time. Build a very good rifle. Attend shows an show your work.  Also it isn't always the fancy gun that you can build a client base from. Learn to market your work.  Just my two cents  Oldtravler

[n stephenson]

For every person you`ll get a different answer. Some people have made their living in other ways and this is a hobby.Some are full time builders so, speed is not important to some and very important to others. This is how I make money so, it is important to me. I can`t help but laugh when I hear  people say "get the skills" . Before everyboby jumps me at the same time let me say "CLASSES ARE GREAT" there is a LOT to be learned but, I don`t care how good your instructor is ,People are not all endowed with the same levels or aptitude for learning skills period. Can many people learn and be taught yes probably but don`t hold your breath.There are people involved in building who have built a third as long as me and their work looks twice as good as mine  they simply are more talented. With all that being said if I was to give advise for speed I would say create a system / an order of operations/ and follow it. Anything that you see that is successful is systematic. I use the same order of operations whether I`m building rifle, fowler , pistol, blunderbuss, etc. I try to complete a task before leaving it so, I don`t end up with a bunch of loose ends . I`m sure there are plenty of other folks on here with good pointers for speed.    Thanks Nathan

[TMerkley]

Efficiency comes with practice

As we say in the army  "slow is smooth, smooth is fast"

Repetition is the key to memorization.  Muscle memory becomes the standard.  Just like running

My first rifle was an experiment.  2000-300 hours of playing. 
My second rifle was much more plain and less experimenting (and a barrel from Bob Roller)  I made that one within 50-60 hours for my son. I spent about the same amount of time for the pistol I made.  My craftsmanship is nowhere near the quality of many of the folks on here. But, time is the key. 

[Sidelock]

Bruce:
   I keep careful track of my hours on each build as Mr. Elliott says he does - I have found that if anything it is taking me longer for each build now then it did a few years back - difference is each build now is far better in quality and fewer mistakes (have not yet built that perfect gun yet - maybe someday).
   Beyond what has already been stated, all good suggestions, are two points that work for me - 1.) - organization your work space - I can not work efficiently in clutter - I have found that I can spend an astronomical amount of time looking for tools when the bench/work space becomes cluttered up with everything else I have pulled out and not put away.  Clean up your work space at the end of each day and at the end of each major step in the build, and put the tools away in the places where you can find them quickly.
2.) organization of your work - when possible complete similar tasks together even if it seems that doing so is out of the "order of progress" for a build - Example - metal preparation/work - do all your metal work at once - draw file the barrel, make thimbles, nose capes, triggers, sideplate, sights, inlays, polish the guard, the lock the butt plate - everything except the patchbox, get that all done in one continual process.  It may take a month but, it gets it done.  Then you can put away all of the metal working tools.  Now when you start on the wood working process you can concentrate on that task and not have to constantly go back and forth between wood and metal work and the different tools used for each.  Another level to this process that I often do for efficiency is to build two or even three projects at once, doing the same basic tasks on each before moving on to the next step. 
    Finally a suggestion and this one may take some time to learn - don't spend any time playing around with wood on the stock that will not be there when the gun is finished. 
     

[Bob Roller]

I don't work for efficiency. I work for money. I have found that too many people are trying to make money by competing for the same market share.  You can't make a lot of money off of people who don't have much. You can't compete with TC. CVA, Cabellas, Pedersoli, and that class and make any money.  There are thousands of custom muzzle loading gun makers now who make average priced guns. It takes about three times as long to make a gun that will sell for 10 times the price of the average gun or more. It will pay to learn to obtain the skills required. If I were young I could make about $200,000.00 pr. year making high grade guns.  Now I just play around at it.
  Otherwise it is a good hobby if you have another income. That's reallity. Learn skill not speed.
 Talent is acquired by study and practice.

Learn skill NOT speed. Speed is nice but accuracy obtained by skill is final.

Bob Roller

[David Rase]

When I was still working for the Department of the Defense I always said that we spent more money tracking and worrying about where the money was spent then just spending it on the intended use.  Same concept with tracking each and every minute spent in the shop, do you want to actually build a gun or spend your time talking and thinking about building.  I have a general idea of how long it takes me to accomplish specific tasks and that is good enough for me.  Years ago I went down the path of wanting to keep track of my hours.  That concept worked for the first couple of trips to the shop then little by little I would forget to note when I started or what I was doing.  Thank God that little experiment was a failure.  Now I just build.  In fact, I see that a lot of guys spend time making actual blueprints or drawings of the rifle they are going to build and don't sway from the original concept.  My method is to start out with a general idea and then let the project talk to me and steer me in the direction it wants to go.  Forcing my will on a project more often times than not ends in less than desirable results.  I guess that is the artist in me, which by the way took years to develop and is still a work in progress since I consider myself more of a craftsman than an artist.
David         

[Chowmi]

Bruce,
I'm in the same boat as you, always looking for ways to build smarter. 

I'm not trying to go fast in order to make money, or just for the sake of going fast.

This is a hobby for me, and I suspect you are after the same thing:  I don't like to spend 8 hours on something that should take 4 with the right techniques and tools.  It's not that I am unwilling to spend 8 hours on it, I certainly am, and will enjoy it.  It's that I can tell when I am not working efficiently and it drives me nuts. 

I also have a job and a 4 year old daughter.  Time for hobbies is limited. 

Here are a few general things I have done that have made tasks easier and quicker for me, and most importantly, have made my results turn out better:

Take a class if you can.  If not, watch the DVD's.  There are a lot of good tips in there.

I try different techniques and tools for many of the tasks and take note of what seems to work best for me.  It's slow at first because some stuff doesn't work, but it will pay dividends later.
I have especially cut down my brass and lock polishing time by trying different combinations of files and sandpaper to find what works for me.  I think I could do an even better job, and quicker, with some better fine files than I have.  More file work, less sandpaper work.

I also go through all the tutorials on this site, and look at any thread such as this that might have techniques in it. 

I am a slow builder, and that's okay.  I would like to improve my efficiency, which would give me more time to slow down on the artistic side. 
I've probably spent as much time or more looking through the tutorials and threads here on the forum as I have spent actually building my first two rifles. 

I guess I'm saying what the others said, learn the skills first and efficiency will come.  I think you knew that and you said you are willing to put in the time. 
That's about the only answer I have!

Cheers,
Norm

[Joe S.]

After knowledge I think the right tools for the job and a proper place to do the work sure helps things along.While I'm no gunsmith but I tinker with these things and am still building my first,the right place and tools is right up there.Can't count the wasted time trying to make tools do jobs there not really designed for.While they do the job the other things you do to get things right be it custom set up,making a tool to use the tool,ect.wastes time.Not having the proper place to do the work be it vise,bench and not having a place at all.I don't have a workshop per say so much time is wasted creating stable places to do the work and then having to do a do over because you need a different angle to come at it.Good thing is I'm building this rifle for myself and I have no time line per say.I would think if one was serious about learning better ways of using ones time during the process, observing a couple of folks who know their craft wouldn't hurt neither

[jerrywh]

 Think ahead and don't make mistakes.  What slows you down is mistakes. Don't take advice from amatures. Rushing never pays off. Don't work when your tired. You can't think well when your tired.
 Alcohol, pot and gun making don't mix. Have the right wife. If you want to be a pro you have to buy or make the tools to do the job even if you have to borrow the money.
  Men are always coming in my shop driving a $55,000.00 pickup and saying "i wish i had a shop like this".
I have a 71 F260 4x4. 

[54ball]

 OK nuts and bolts stuff....

 A depth gauge and a pencil...
 As you inlet use the gauge. There's no need to candle, fine tune and pretty up the inlet when you still have to go down another half inch.

 The pencil can be used with the gauge, calipers and also a calculator to figure out measurements, widths, depths and angles.

 A file to file good drafts on the parts. As you inlet parts down, remove surrounding wood. Not to the finished surface but enough so you are not fighting the excess. With a draft the parts go in but more importantly come out easier.

 Avoid tunnel vision....Keep your head in the game.

 Don't rush. Having to go back and completely re-do or repair something is more time consuming than carefully doing it right and precise in the first place.

 My father told me this about playing ball... Gain the skill and the speed will come.

[Mike Brooks]

I do this for a living. In fact over 20 years full time now. After reading all of this there is much I could say. But over the years I have learned I'm better off to say less on these types of subjects....

[goodtime7]

I have carefully read all your responses to my original post.   I appreciate the diverse opinions, thoughts and suggestions.   It seems to me that one of the biggest factors separating the novice from the experienced builder is the ability to move efficiently when removing excess metal or wood.  Putting in any extra time near the end of the process when it really counts, perfecting precision inletting, detail etc.   As Jerry Fisher, the dean of modern rifle stockmakers has said "you pay me for the final 1/16-1/32 of an inch".   Thanks again for your help and all the rest of the information that is willingly shared on this forum.    B

[Bob Roller]

Think ahead and don't make mistakes.  What slows you down is mistakes. Don't take advice from amatures. Rushing never pays off. Don't work when your tired. You can't think well when your tired.
 Alcohol, pot and gun making don't mix. Have the right wife. If you want to be a pro you have to buy or make the tools to do the job even if you have to borrow the money.
  Men are always coming in my shop driving a $55,000.00 pickup and saying "i wish i had a shop like this".
I have a 71 F260 4x4.

This is VERY solid advice.I have had to redo rush work and learned quickly the pay is poor.I have borrowed money to buy one lathe and my milling machine and  it established a credit history that is solid for over 50 years. I couldn't ask for a better wife for me or as a mother to two now grown boys. She has supported me in my shop work and will not spend a dime without getting full value for it. Our current car is a 1997 Lincoln Town Car,bought at a car dealer 14 years ago who also does estate sales. It's a personal preference car according to our insurance company.We have savings,NO debt and this Friday,my wife Brenda will retire from her job.One thing that has been a big help to us is NOT worrying about things we can't have or afford. Living in reality has always been our guide and materialism has never been our goal. Booze,beer,drugs are not in our lives and we have no need for a crutch or accelerator to get thru the day.

Bob Roller
with the City Parking Board in Huntington,WV and will be 74 in two weeks.

[Bob Roller]

HOW did that one sentence get split off and under my signature???

Bob Roller

[Jim Kibler]

My view is that efficiency depends on several factors.  The talent your given, how hard you have worked to learn and how hard you are willing to work to complete a task.  Gun building is tough, especially when working with speed. 

As with anything, there are a handful of those who have these components and have risen to the top. 

Doing this for a living will certainly select...

Jim

[Mike Brooks]

I'll give some personal observations that have come from teaching hands on gunbuilding at Conner Prairie for several years. Those that are handy with hand tools generally can build a gun. Carpenters and car mechanics are likely to be able to build a gun, bankers and lawyers not so much. Dentist and doctors are also good candidates for building guns. Some natural artistic talent is essential as well.
 There are two major skills that are concerned with gunmaking and one person rarely excels at both but when they do watch out. Those skills fall under metal work and wood work. Metal workers of course are good at all things metal and usually can even become pretty good engravers with some instruction, although they can struggle with design and proportion in general. Wood workers probably have the best eye for architecture and they have the ability to see a gun in the wood, and of course you can get some great relief carvers out of this bunch also.
 There are several things I see on the board that new guys struggle with over and over, some of it can be helped, some not. Dexterity or the ability to handle tools is a major problem, this goes back to the carpenter/banker thing for the most part. Dull tools and inappropriate tools are a major problem as well as using the wrong tool for the job. Choosing crappy wood is another big problem. It's really hard not to get in trouble when building with a soft piece of wood, it can really slow you down. You don't need a premium super dooper curly stock, it just has to be hard. When you're starting out you should call Dunlap and request the hardest piece of plain maple he has on hand. There also seems to always be a major problem with inletting black getting all over. Never understood it as I have never had a problem. Use black sparingly so you get an accurate print and make sure you're lifting your part in and out correctly so you don't leave any false prints.
 You have to develop a "workman like manor" when you work, rapid but under control. You should be able to see where a part goes and know how much wood needs to be removed and remove it, no shaving small bits off forever , just get the wood out and move on.
 The best pros out there have the ability to shape wood and metal equally and do it in a workman like manor. Some folks have what it takes and some don't and never will.
  And that's all I have to say about that.