John Schuler Rifle - Bucks Co. - Legit?

[120RIR]

Hi Guys -

I would kill for a lovely all-original Bucks County rifle and I recently spotted one reported to be from John Schuler.  At first it "looks" beautiful but after comparing it to other examples I'm starting to get a little skeptical.  You'll see it listed here:

http://www.antiquegunroom.net/

To my generally un-schooled eye, there's much to like but then I considered the quality of the patchbox engraving which is very crude and very much unlike others I've seen attributed to him.  Also, the carved line on the stock surrounding the patchbox is pretty uneven - also seemingly inconsistent with others I've seen (although admittedly not handled).  Lastly, the incised carving behind the cheek piece is relatively crude also.  Are we looking at a poorly "enhanced" otherwise original Schuler/Bucks County rifle or am I just being too critical?  I'd much rather see what I see instead of what I want to see!

[louieparker]

I wouldn't comment  to the maker and it may not be the finest example known. But to me it sure looks like an honest gun and I like that....LP

[Tom Currie]

120RIR, I'd agree mostly with your assessment. A nice original rifle with mostly crude engraving and carving details. Today we mostly see the finer surviving examples so it's a bit hard to say how many were once made in this fashion. The trigger guard is not what I'd expect to see on a finer rifle.

[Buck]

120RIR,

Finest example, thats the typical overture of every long rifle sales pitch. I would agree with Louie, it's honest and appealing.

Buck

[Spinner]

The Mercer Museum in Doylestown, PA has a couple of rifles in storage that are very similar to the one pictured. Same level of carving and same crude "propeller" design on the patchbox lid (that looks a little like moose horns).

John Shuler and partner, William Thomas had a gunsmithing business in Milford Twp. Bucks County from 1800 - 1802. There were, probably, more workers there and these guns may have been produced at that time. Certainly not up to the level of Shuler's carving and engraving.

We tend to assume these rifles were made by one person but it's quite logical that different hands were involved. These moderate quality, unsigned pieces may be examples of early production items . They were in business to make a living.

Shuler signed his work. Usually his intitials JS would appear on the patchbox lid or barrel and, sometimes on the lock. One fully signed example is in the Ft. Ticonderoga museum. I would not assume Shuler made anything that wasn't signed - particularly anything at that level of quality.

[Eric Kettenburg]

That's a pretty charming rifle.  I'm not so sure I'd attribute it to John Shuler but on the other hand I have seen some pieces with his signature that were not as "fine" in execution as others, so quite possibly the guy had others working in his shop.  There seems to be an overlap with a lot of these Bucks makers and I think there were probably quite a few more 'unnamed' makers building the same type/style of rifle than those that are currently known.  If vast quantities of Bucks Co. records had not been lost in a 19th century fire, we'd probably know of quite a few more 'names.'  I would personally view this as an unnamed maker rather than attribute it to Shuler, so take that for what it's worth, jmho.

I really like the lock on this one; there appears to be a name engraved on the lock and it would probably indicate the maker as quite a few of those Bucks guys appeared to be making their own locks.  The ad writeup states that it's illegible but possibly with closer examination something more could be made of it.

[JCKelly]

That site has a wonderful John Hagy (rifle). Kindig says "Haga" Anyway I looked hard until I realized I was counting Zeros wrong.

Obsolete creature that I am I would have thought in the vicinity of $15,000 - $20,000 might be about right.

Is that $50K figure really what a decent Haga/Hagy/Hagi brings now?

[Eric Kettenburg]

Ha "Spinner" you beat me to it!  I was wondering if you were still around here and was hoping you'd chime in on these Bucks threads! 

[Buck]

JCKelly,

I would opine that those prices are a bit high.

Buck

 

[Spinner]

Eric, this is, probably the most frustrating "school" of American Longrifle builders. From viewing guns made by Shuler, Verner, "AP", some Weicker, Daub, Hersh, and others you'd swear they were in the same shop using the same stock pattern and dipping into a common box of hardware. The carving details, side opening patchbox, unique patchbox release, long ramrod pipes, extended entry pipe, and short, open nose cap are all frustratingly similar.

And, then just when you think you've seen it all, one shows up with a short entry pipe and "Delaware Daisy" patchbox. Then there's one with relief carving. It's really a shame about the records. They would have gone a long way towards making sense of this group of guns.

All that being said they are one of the most stylish 'schools" of that period, and one of the most easily identified.

[rlm]

Mr. Kelly,  Buck,  the prices asked for this group of Kentucky are certainly not for the faint of heart. But it's seldom that you run across guns in such pristine condition.

[Buck]

rlm,

The rifles appear to be nice pieces, pristine I can't say from photos. If you would like I can send you my thoughts in a PM, I can't speak for Mr. Kelly but I would be more than happy to give you an explanation as to my conclusion.

Buck

[JTR]

rlm,

The rifles appear to be nice pieces, pristine I can't say from photos. If you would like I can send you my thoughts in a PM, I can't speak for Mr. Kelly but I would be more than happy to give you an explanation as to my conclusion.

Buck

I'd be interested in your conclusion, if you'd be so kind.
John

[Buck]

JTR,

I will oblige you Sir.

It's 2017, and these rifles are at 2009 prices.

1.) John Hagy was a solid builder, but not one who is considered  one of the "Grand Masters / Artisan" of the Long Rifle. In other words his work is not comparable to Beck, Bonewitz, Armstrong, Schroyer, etc. That price is what the Grand Builders are fetching on a really good day.

2.) The Schroyers a great gun - condition. I explained it above.

rlm, unfortunately that is the reality of it. Many of us here wish the demand and those prices would return.


Buck   

[JTR]

Thank you, sir. I can understand the price point.

I thought you might have meant that something despicable and irreparable had been done to it, like a small piece of wood being added or a converted lock! 

John

[Buck]

JTR,

You are welcome!

Buck

[Stan]

Based on some Yeager rifles I have & have studied, the lock is most probably imported from Germany. imho Stan

[193rdsow]

I know this thread is dated but thought you all might like to see another rifle attributed to John Schuler. It is a Buck and Ball. The gun is wonderfully balanced. I purchased the gun almost 30 years ago.

[rich pierce]

I love it! Thanks for sharing.

[WESTbury]

I checked out this website. It has not been updated since 2-11-2019. Either David is out of business or he needs to adjust his pricing guidelines.

[mr. no gold]

This is a dealer in high end guns and the prices seem to reflect that business policy. I enjoy looking at his inventory because there will always be some nice pieces. The Bucks rifle is a good legitimate gun and while it may be priced at a somewhat high price, it is not out of the ordinary since good Bucks rifles tend to have high prices. The Hagy is a good example of a later Lancaster rifle and although he is often overlooked as an artistic maker, there is at least one rifle by him that is an absolute screamer. One of the best of the later Lancaster guns made.
Having said that, I would think that this gun shown has a worth considerably less that the quoted price. The Shroyer on the other hand looks to be the bargain in the lot.
If I were shopping for a Bucks rifle I would not look askance at this one, however. It's nice piece.
Dick

[PHILADa]

The more that I study original Upper Perkiomen Watershed Gun Smiths the easier it is to become confused in making a Gun Smith maker attribution.  A few years ago I examined an early Gun from this area but it looked like someone ran a 10 penny nail thru some of the carving. I consulted friends who agreed.  I did not buy it.  It was early and an honest gun without a box.  Having seen a few more, it is not unlikely that our idea of quality carving may have been good enough at the time.  I  wish I had purchased it now.

[tlallijr]

This dealer has been to the Eastern Pennsylvania Longrifle show, or at least he was the last time I attended. He does have some magnificent rifles, and I particularly thought that the rifle attributed to Schuler was one of the best rifles at the show that day. Keep in mind I am a complete amateur, but I will say the pictures don’t capture all the beauty of this rifle as seeing it in person. I couldn’t believe how delicate the rifle looked.  Tony

[jdm]

[quote
The more that I study original Upper Perkiomen Watershed Gun Smiths the easier it is to become confused in making a Gun Smith maker attribution.  A few years ago I examined an early Gun from this area but it looked like someone ran a 10 penny nail thru some of the carving. I consulted friends who agreed.  I did not buy it.  It was early and an honest gun without a box.  Having seen a few more, it is not unlikely that our idea of quality carving may have been good enough at the time.  I  wish I had purchased it now.
[/quote]
PHILADa,  I had a similar experience to yours. I passed on a Bucks county rifle because the carving was just as you described . It looked like it had been gone over with a ten penny nail.   The price was fair at that time . Sometimes our lack of knowledge in these leads to mistakes.

[Eric Kettenburg]

There are definitely a few of them out there that clearly WERE gone over with a 10 penny nail or a hammer driven oversized V tool more likely.  The original carving on most if not all of these was quite delicate and after years of refinishings, it apparently became popular to "refresh" it in the past 50-75 years.  I've actually spoken to folks who have told me outright that this was done at a time of recent refinishing/restoration 'because the carving was almost gone' (paraphrasing here).  More than a couple of them, too.