Cock hits top molding

[Scota4570]

I am very inexperienced so I must be missing something.  Regarding the lock molding being in the way of the cock,  they normally are, but on my last project it was extreme.   See the first photo:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/b3q2e1stjjsv6kh/AACfGPWS6Tqld4PxqMOEAmbba?dl=0

I think that turned out really ugly.  I hate seeing the top of the lock plate and big hole in the in-letting.  I had a Hatfield like this, I sold it.  Here, I made a lock plate that was taller than normally used.  That had some effect, but his is extreme. 

The cock was way inboard of the frizzen as assembled.  I ended up pretty radically bending the cock so the flint would hit the frizzen and not the barrel .  It looked to me like that is how the lock is designed. I must be wrong on that. 

So I think cutting away the lock molding looks terrible.  Maybe it is traditional but ....  Are there cocks or locks that do not require mauling the lock molding?  Locks where the frizzen and cock line up as designed?

[B.Habermehl]

With out having your gun in hand, it is hard to give you a definite answer. I'm betting you might have a bit of a squareness issue with the lock plate to barrel. Plus often the web thickness of the top of your lock panel could be a bit thick. Or you have your lock panel a bit high. I have run into all of these issues before. On the guns I have built I usually have a notch about 1/8 deep by 5/16 wide till I'm done. If it looks like I need more I have a problem with architecture or squareness normally. BJH

[Daryl]

That's quite a long cuttout on the stock. Most have a shorter notch to clear the side of the hammer's arm/reach.

[Scota4570]

The lock molding/plate is square to the barrel, just checked with a machinist square.

On this lock, see the link, the stop shoulder on the cock is as deep as the lock plate is thick.  That makes for a huge hogged out piece of the lock molding.  Can I cut away most of all of the that stop shoulder on the cock? 

The cock lines up the flint way to far inboard as cast.  I had to really bend it so it would work.  Not is looks funny.  I trued the tumbler in a lathe.  I made the hole in the plate with only a few thousands clearance, it hardly wobbles at all. 

This is the same lock in the link above.  It is the single most popular lock.  I find these glaring geometry issues to bee odd.  It must be something I did. 

Mostly, in the future, I would prefer to use locks that do not use a shoulder on the cock hitting the top of the plate. Are there quality locks that avoid that?


**  Some time later, just went out to the shop.  I milled off the molding and made a patch.  I will remove some of the cock neck to minimize the cut out.   

[Ky-Flinter]

On this lock, see the link, the stop shoulder on the cock is as deep as the lock plate is thick.

That is pretty standard.  The cock needs that shoulder to contact the lock plate.  Otherwise the tumbler contacting the bridle will be the only stop.  The following pictures are of my current pistol project.



The lock panel/molding almost always needs to be notched, but if the lock panels are narrow (as they should be), the notch doesn't need to be very big.  This notch allows all the clearance that is needed for this lock.



I've struggled with this too on previous builds.  On this pistol, I inletted the lock plate and internals as much as I could without the cock installed.  Then I shaped the lock panels.  Then I installed the cock on the tumbler without the mainspring.  Move the cock back as full cocked would be, install the lock plate, then rotate the cock until it contacts and marks the lock panel/molding.  With a small gouge remove a tiny amount of wood only where the cock made contact.  Continue until the cock shoulder rests on the lock plate.  Hope this helps.

-Ron

[smylee grouch]

That shoulder on the inside of the cock helps take some of the shock of the sudden stop out of the tumbler. I think you want that. The more expert lock men should chime in on that.

[Acer Saccharum]

You MUST have the shoulder on the cock. That's what stops its forward travel. You don't want the tumbler taking this punishment.

1) On a new build, inlet your plate.
2) Then install the cock on the lock, with cock in lower position.  Put a light coat of inlet black on the inside arm of the cock, and press the lock into the inlet as far as it will go. Pull it out, and you will see a black spot where the cock touches the wood.
3) Cut the wood away. repeat #2 and #3 until the lock plate seats completely.
4) Put cock to half cock position, and repeat #3 until the lock plate seats completely.
5) try the cock from lower to full, with inlet black on its inside arm. You will need to have a slot for the trigger so you can lower the cock. Pare off any spots that bind.
6) install lock screws and tighten up. Repeat #5. Pare off a whisker more than you need so the cock has freedom of movement when the wood swells up from humidity, etc.

I put inlet black on with an old toothbrush, hardly enough to see on the metal, but it shows on the wood.

[David Price]

Scotia 4570,

Is your touch hole liner installed with the inside out, or am I seeing wrong ?

David Price

[Smoketown]

Scotia 4570,

Is your touch hole liner installed with the inside out, or am I seeing wrong ?

David Price

Looks like a standard  T/C touch hole liner to me.

Cheers,
Smoketown

[Scota4570]

It is not  a TC barrel.  It is a 36" 54 cal tapered, 1" at the breech and 7/8 at the muzzle.  The liner is a hex drive grub screw.  The little hole is inside. It is backwards from a White Lightning.   I have never used this style liner before.  I am curious.  Seems to me that several grains of powder in the hex drive section could create a little pressure.  That might make more reliable ignition?  I'll see.


After my replacement molding section's glue dried I re-carved that part of the stock.  I made the molding very thin.   I also reduced the shoulder on the cock quite a bit.  It looks a lot better. 

The plate being larger than originally intended makes the cock's shoulder ride very  close to the plate.  That  created clearance problems.  The cock's shoulder does not move up and away from the plate when it is cocked.  It rotates more along the edge of the plate.   I now wish I had just spent the extra $75 on the RPL lock.  OH well, it is about doing and learning, not being efficient. 

[smart dog]

Hi,
This is only my opinion and taste, but I hate seeing a notch filed to clear the flint cock.  I realize that many original guns were made that way and there may be some flintlocks and stock designs that make it inevitable.  On the guns in the photos below I avoided the need for a notch by: 1) making sure the top of the stock conforms as close as possible to the barrel flats or curve, 2) thinning the lock moldings as they approach the back of the pan fence, 3) tapering the moldings inward as they approach the fence to expose more of the lock bolster.

dave

[Smoketown]

It is not  a TC barrel.  It is a 36" 54 cal tapered, 1" at the breech and 7/8 at the muzzle.  The liner is a hex drive grub screw.  The little hole is inside. It is backwards from a White Lightning.   I have never used this style liner before.  I am curious.  Seems to me that several grains of powder in the hex drive section could create a little pressure.  That might make more reliable ignition?  I'll see.

Not at all that much different than a T/C touch hole liner ... They SUCK !!

When shooting on a humid day and you are getting that nice slimy residue in the pan and on the frizzen, it will tend to build up in the hex recess making ignition dodgy at best.

Dills pipe cleaners help but, depending no how your barrel is drilled and tapped, an Ampco slotted touch hole liner or a White Lightning liner is far better.

YMMV

Cheers,
Smoketown

[Scota4570]

Good to know.  I'll grab a piece of stainless and make a better liner.

[Smoketown]

[/url][/img]Here is an AMPCO and a T/C Touch Hole Liner ... Hope this works !!

Cheers,
Smoketown



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[n stephenson]

Smart Dog , Thanks for posting the pics! NICE WORK!! Those are nice examples of how to address this issue .   Nathan

[Acer Saccharum]

He certainly is a Smart Dog.

[Scota4570]

I made one like the brass colored one.  My original TC line was like that, ~1975 vintage.  I did not know they made them with a hex drive later. 

I shot the rifle yesterday.  Only one misfire.  The prime did not ignite.  Dressing the flint fixed it.  Twice the pan did not open all the way.  Would it be OK to lighten the frizzen spring a tad?

I seems to me that the cock is not getting a long enough stroke (enough energy). If I use a long flint it lacks energy to open the pan.  If I use a shorter flint the pan does not open.  It is a flint balancing act.  That is an issue I had with another lock of the same make.  The full cock notch is very close to the half cock notch.  If I were guessing from intuition I would make the full cock notch further back.  On the other lock I made a new sear with a longer nose.  On this lock that messes up the angles and makes it not hold full cock with a reasonable angle on the tumbler.  To change it I would need to make a new tumbler from scratch.  My only hold up on that is cutting the fly recess.

How does one cut a the fly recess?  A milling cutter that small seems implausible.  Cut it out with engraving tools?

It did shoot accurately.  54 cal, 530 ball, denim patch, 80 grains 2f, gives ping pong ball size groups at 50 yards.