Most evolved flintlock?

[Scota4570]

What is the most reliable, most durable,  fastest lock time, etc.,  available.   Kit, casting set, or assembled is OK.  I imagine one of the Manton variations?  Roller pan, stirrup mainspring, waterproof pan, what features should I be looking for?   

[Mike Brooks]

Chambers late ketland is the fastest and dependable small lock I know of. His early ketland is probably the fastest dependable large lock. I have found rollers, type of mainspring and supposedly "water proof" pan to be irrelevant.
 The English were big innovators of gadgets on their locks but all of it was just pure gimmick to attract rich customers.

Bob Roller could make you a fast and dependable lock as well.

[sqrldog]

I replied and said about the same as Mike Brooks. Don't know where that post went. The Chambers Late Ketland is hard to beat. Be aware though that all locks of the same model assembled by the same lock assembler will not be equal. Differences in castings can mean minute differences in tolerances and one lock will simply out perform the other. I have early L&R locks that have given great service through the years and are fairly fast. For a big lock the Chambers Early Ketland is also my choice. It has less shock and set up right is very quick. Style of rifle often dictates lock type. The deluxe Siler is the correct choice for some early rifles and is also a durable fast lock. Lock speed begins with a good lock but without a good touch hole and proper placing of touch hole in relation to the lock, its true potential will not be realized. Tim

[Jerry V Lape]

I seem to recall Larry Pletcher reporting that an original Manton was the fastest lock they ever tested. 

[Scota4570]

I'd prefer to be my own lock maker.  I am not interested in having someone do it for me.  I make rifles because I like the process.  The more I can do myself, the better. 

[sqrldog]

When I read your original post I understood you to say cast set or assembled is okay. Sorry I misunderstood you. Good luck in building a lock. Tim

[Scota4570]

Typing is a difficult way to communicate.   

A casting set is probably preferred.  I was trying to say that I don't want to buy a lock some one else made.  Time I got.  Money not so much.  Curiosity I have in spades.   I am in this hobby to learn and to make 3-D puzzles.  What we make is functional sculpture with a historical significance.  For some reason that is compelling to me. 

: )

Anyone sell a late Manton casting set....other than the guys that take years to fill an order?

[smart dog]

Hi,
Lock for rifle, fowling gun, or pistol?  Get any of the of the TRS Manton castings.  For pistols, I believe Blackley's Wogdon locks cannot be beat.  However, fast ignition is not just the lock.  The British perfected flintlock ignition as far as it can go using both superb lock design and breech design. Nock's breech probably contributed as much to speed and reliability as any of the locks. Also, you will need to understand how to make and balance springs.

dave

[Scota4570]

I'm thinking a Manton, 1/2 stock fowler with a 1/2 octagon rifle barrel. 

I just tried to call TRS.  They don't answer. 

Based on their reputation for not being able to deliver in a timely fashion, they scare me.  I also see that don't have pictures of the casting sets or locks for much of what interests me.   I am probably wrong, but that suggests they have never made that casting set.  If I could see what I was getting and have them actually ship it I'd try them.   

Anyway, does anyone else sell casting sets for fine English locks? 

Scot

[SingleMalt]

Stan Hollenbaugh's "Ditchburn" locks are excellent quality and super fast. He builds each lock to order.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Blackley's in the UK sells casting sets but neither TRS or Blackley's are fast.  You have to plan ahead.  Look online for E. J. Blackley and Son.

dave

[Daryl]

The L&R Dickert lock that I had (purchased from Track), seemed every bit as fast, but probably no faster than the Chamber's Locks.  I might have been extraordinary lucky, but that lock's speed was an observation Taylor made.

[Frank]

Chambers late ketland is the fastest and dependable small lock I know of. His early ketland is probably the fastest dependable large lock. I have found rollers, type of mainspring and supposedly "water proof" pan to be irrelevant.
 The English were big innovators of gadgets on their locks but all of it was just pure gimmick to attract rich customers.

Bob Roller could make you a fast and dependable lock as well.

Which Chambers Early Ketland lock is better. With or without the pan bridle? I am thinking they are both good, just depends on the time period gun you are building.

[oldtravler61]

  I'm with Daryl. I have several locks from different makers an the Dickert is very fast. But also maybe I just got lucky. Good luck on your build. The only lock that's better is one of Bob Rollers. There as Smith as a Rolex watch. Oldtravler

[Mike Brooks]

Chambers late ketland is the fastest and dependable small lock I know of. His early ketland is probably the fastest dependable large lock. I have found rollers, type of mainspring and supposedly "water proof" pan to be irrelevant.
 The English were big innovators of gadgets on their locks but all of it was just pure gimmick to attract rich customers.

Bob Roller could make you a fast and dependable lock as well.

Which Chambers Early Ketland lock is better. With or without the pan bridle? I am thinking they are both good, just depends on the time period gun you are building.

I find pan bridles to be a pretty useless feature on a properly made lock. All they do is catch fowling. Same with all of those "water proof" gimmicks.

[Dennis Glazener]

I was told by someone, maybe Jim Chambers, that locks with/without pan bridles were contemporaries, I.e. both of the same time period.
Dennis

[Bob Roller]

  I'm with Daryl. I have several locks from different makers an the Dickert is very fast. But also maybe I just got lucky. Good luck on your build. The only lock that's better is one of Bob Rollers. There as Smith as a Rolex watch. Oldtravler

These wonderful flintlocks that came from the shops of the English lock filers were
strong attempts to stop the onslaught of percussion ignition and they left us with
some magnificent relics that are more than worthy of study today. These people
were obstructionists and knew that when they were working.
50+ years ago there was a set of books called "The American Gun"published by
Larry Sheerin and Herb Glass and in Volume 1 #2 is a story called Fuzes,Flints and Pyrites
by Robert held. It describes the anger about the new percussion system for firearms
and said it would make war even more awful than it already was because of the near
certainty of ignition.It points out the nearly "perfect"English sporting flintlocks that
could fire as fast as the percussion guns and the small group of arch conservatives
that like the wheel lock shooters of Switzerland and Germany would never change
their ways.It also finishes by saying the grandson of one of these old men was at that
very moment ordering a new double barreled percussion shotgun.
These types of books are a treasure and are never mentioned today by anyone in
the muzzle loading sports.Why is that???
Bob Roller
There were supposedly 4 volumes of these books but I have never had the 4th one
nor have I seen one. I have 3 of them and wonderful history is contained in them.

[oldtravler61]

   Mr. Roller sometimes we get in a hurry to see what's new an improved. Without realizing it was done year's ago. Like you I enjoy the old books. Ned Roberts was a man ahead of his time along with many other's. Have only shot an handled one rifle with one of your locks. Still after thirty years the smoothest lock I have had the pleasure to shoot. Someday I hope to weasel it out of my friend but so far no such luck.   Mike

[Clowdis]

  I'm with Daryl. I have several locks from different makers an the Dickert is very fast. But also maybe I just got lucky. Good luck on your build. The only lock that's better is one of Bob Rollers. There as Smith as a Rolex watch. Oldtravler

These wonderful flintlocks that came from the shops of the English lock filers were
strong attempts to stop the onslaught of percussion ignition and they left us with
some magnificent relics that are more than worthy of study today. These people
were obstructionists and knew that when they were working.
50+ years ago there was a set of books called "The American Gun"published by
Larry Sheerin and Herb Glass and in Volume 1 #2 is a story called Fuzes,Flints and Pyrites
by Robert held. It describes the anger about the new percussion system for firearms
and said it would make war even more awful than it already was because of the near
certainty of ignition.It points out the nearly "perfect"English sporting flintlocks that
could fire as fast as the percussion guns and the small group of arch conservatives
that like the wheel lock shooters of Switzerland and Germany would never change
their ways.It also finishes by saying the grandson of one of these old men was at that
very moment ordering a new double barreled percussion shotgun.
These types of books are a treasure and are never mentioned today by anyone in
the muzzle loading sports.Why is that???
Bob Roller
There were supposedly 4 volumes of these books but I have never had the 4th one
nor have I seen one. I have 3 of them and wonderful history is contained in them.

Bob,
Slightly off topic here but I have to agree that there are some rather obscure books out there that contain a wealth of information about flintlocks and firearm development in the 1700's and 1800's. One of my favorites is "The Flintlock: it's origin and development". While not focusing on the lock in particular it does trace the lock and it's firearms through it's European development and contains engraving and carving pattern sheets designed by artists in France and England. These drawings contain engraving and carving patterns used by gunsmiths even today. More art than engineering. More on topic, I have a L&R Manton lock that is about as fast as any I have seen.

[Daryl]

This pistol, that Taylor made, has ignition speed that seems as fast as any cap-lock I have ever fired. I have shot quite a number of flintlocks that their owners claimed were as fast as cap-guns- not even close - always a perceived lag - but - not with this pistol. It has a single set trigger and the moment the trigger 'breaks' the gun goes off - seemingly, instantaneous ignition.

This pistol has both flint and pyrites wheels.

[Buffaload]

Daryl, was that lock scratch built or a casting set, or even better, a set of plans?
Ed

[JCKelly]

Bob Roller, you convinced me. Just ordered Vol. 1 No. 2 from my favorite used bookseller.

[n stephenson]

This pistol, that Taylor made, has ignition speed that seems as fast as any cap-lock I have ever fired. I have shot quite a number of flintlocks that their owners claimed were as fast as cap-guns- not even close - always a perceived lag - but - not with this pistol. It has a single set trigger and the moment the trigger 'breaks' the gun goes off - seemingly, instantaneous ignition.

This pistol has both flint and pyrites wheels.

Daryl, That pistol is something!!! Do you mind telling more about it ? Some piece of WORK!!! Thanks Nathan

[Mike Brooks]

I have shot a wheel lock rifle before, super fast.

[Bob Roller]

Bob Roller, you convinced me. Just ordered Vol. 1 No. 2 from my favorite used bookseller.

Jim,
I'm glad you could find one.Used to see them at the OGCA meetings in Columbus Ohio
in the 1960's. This volume has a good article on Frank Hamer,the Texas Ranger that
"rehabilitated" Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker in 1934.

Bob Roller