2f vs 3f

[jtwodogs]

Was wondering grain for grain. With everything equal would 90 grains of 3f Goex be a little faster then 2f?
Thanks.

[smylee grouch]

My take on it is that 3f is faster burning than 2f but actual muzzle velocity between the equal charges of the two might vary because of cal., barrel length, ball/patch combinations and other considerations. That question might open up a can of worms as every one will have different opinions.

[steg49]

Lyman's black powder handbook tested the differance between 2f and 3f in a 54 cal for 80 gr load  3f had vel of 1629 (pressure 8400 lup) and the 2 f had vel of 1367 (pressure 6400 lup). Also do a search on this, there has been a lot of discussion on which is best 2 or 3 f.  steg49

[rfd]

3f will have "more of everything" over 2f, including chamber pressures. 

i use nothing but swiss 3f for all my muzzleloaders no matter what the bore size, from .32 to .62 ... and for the pan, too. 

[Standing Bear]

2 separate tests w chronographed loads (100 rounds ea) show 2F to have more consistent velocities. 3-5 rounds of 3F would spike 350 to 450 fps above average.  I use 2F in everything .32 thru shotguns as well as flinters since the late 70s. So it depends on what u want from a load. Max velocity or max consistency.
TC

[OldMtnMan]

That makes no sense, because some guns are clearly more accurate with 3F over 2F.

[T*O*F]

That makes no sense, because some guns are clearly more accurate with 3F over 2F.

It makes perfect sense because the opposite is also true.  Accurate loads can be worked up with almost any powder.  The most accurate powder will be the one with the least velocity variation from shot to shot.  This is usually Swiss, which can vary less than 10 fps consistently.

Also, when comparing the two, you must use weighed charges for both to equal your 90 grain example.  3F is denser, while 2F has more air space between granules so it would weigh less if used volumetrically.

[WadePatton]

That makes no sense, because some guns are clearly more accurate with 3F over 2F.

It makes perfect sense because the opposite is also true.  Accurate loads can be worked up with almost any powder.  The most accurate powder will be the one with the least velocity variation from shot to shot.  This is usually Swiss, which can vary less than 10 fps consistently.

Also, when comparing the two, you must use weighed charges for both to equal your 90 grain example.  3F is denser, while 2F has more air space between granules so it would weigh less if used volumetrically.

This ^^^

and as big D usually recommends, it's a good idea to work up a most accurate load for your gun with both powders. 

Only _then_ will you know which is MOST accurate in your gun-given that the rest of your components are well-chosen and working properly together, (assuming good bench technique, loading consistency, and fair weather).

With an accurate load worked up in both powders, one can shoot either to good effect whenever the case may arise.  Options are great to have.

[OldMtnMan]

I've had many guns that were more accurate with 3F. Of course I had to use 2F and 3F for the testing. How else could I say 3F was more accurate. If 3F had more deviation as the standard. How could it ever be more accurate in any gun over 2F?

Swiss or Goex doesn't matter as long as the testing is done with the same powder. You can't use Swiss 2f and Goex 3F and claim 2F powder is more accurate.

[jtwodogs]

Steve Zihn built my gun, when he sent it to me he said the most accurate load he came up with was 90 grains of 3f I believe it was Goex, anyway I just stuck with that, and yes it seems to be very accurate. Just out curiosity sake I wanted to see what a max load of 2f would be like. It is a .62 cal.

[John SMOthermon]

Only one way to know for sure what works best for that particular gun...

[hanshi]

Go for whichever grain size/load gives the best accuracy.  Velocity only matters as long as there is enough for the range you feel comfortable shooting and the size of the game you're hunting..

[WadePatton]

Steve Zihn built my gun, when he sent it to me he said the most accurate load he came up with was 90 grains of 3f I believe it was Goex, anyway I just stuck with that, and yes it seems to be very accurate. Just out curiosity sake I wanted to see what a max load of 2f would be like. It is a .62 cal.

We don't load to "max".  We load to best accuracy.  You can always dump in more powder, but if the ball misses the mark it has zero effect. Accuracy is king. 

The fastest and surest way to get more POWER is to up the bore size when dealing with PRB's. 

[smylee grouch]

Can I add that shot placement is king and good shot placement is more attainable with good accuracy. A max load mis-placed is less effective than an less than max load placed in the right spot. The original question of this thread was about which powder was faster. I assume velocity was the question and again, that can vary with numerous factors.

[OldMtnMan]

Sometimes a proper hunting load isn't the most accurate load, but it's close enough for hunting. It doesn't help to have perfect accuracy if the load is too weak to kill the animal. Deer is never a problem, but elk can be.


edit........Before you get too frisky. When I say it's good enough for hunting. I mean instead of shooting a 1" group the hunting load may shoot a 2" group.

[Darkhorse]

I always stuck to 2f until I read my copy of the old Lyman Muzzleloading book. The section on tests run with 3f really caught my interest and now all I load is 3f. It should be faster than 2f  but I know one thing, my accuracy has not suffered a bit. Maybe it's the years I've been tweaking my loads but I'm completely happy with 3f. And no, I'm not a rookie. I started in BP in 1976.

[OldMtnMan]

3F is not only faster, but ignites faster too. Good for flintlocks. If you match the fps of 2F you can use less. Which means it's cheaper and has less fouling.

Not sure why anybody would use 2F unless it's dramatically more accurate. I've never had a gun that was, but i'm sure others have.

[hudson]

With 3f Most of my rifles have liked it, 2f maybe a bit less. My present .54 shoots much tighter with 2f. I should add I shoot mostly long range, think silhouette. Heavy charges of 2f leave a much softer fouling than 3f. One .50 seamed about the same accuracy wise with both but also softer fouling with 2f. As I recall 100 gr. 3f = 110 gr 2f in the present .54.

[little joe]

 Here in southern Indiana we shoot a lot of 3f as it does not seem to dirty as quick. Thin walls or heavy hunting loads should use 2f.

[OldMtnMan]

Here in southern Indiana we shoot a lot of 3f as it does not seem to dirty as quick. Thin walls or heavy hunting loads should use 2f.

What do you call a heavy hunting load? I use 85gr Goex 3F .54 PRB for elk. It knocks them down pretty good. If I just hunted for deer i'd use much less.

[hudson]

Maybe getting a bit off subject but I think of interest, I guess I should have engaged brain (hunting load) as I no longer hunt and over kill. I have found a sweet spot with accuracy tied to velocity. When working up velocity chart from 25 to 200 yards and tied to bench work I found best accuracy at 50 yards is 65 gr. Accuracy drops off a bit at 100 yards, increasing velocity decreased group size. Applying this nonage 110 gr. brings the velocity some were close to about 80 yards velocity at 200. Think turkey and bear silhouette at Friendship. Now this is from memory so is approximate.

[little joe]

Here in southern Indiana we shoot a lot of 3f as it does not seem to dirty as quick. Thin walls or heavy hunting loads should use 2f.

What do you call a heavy hunting load? I use 85gr Goex 3F .54 PRB for elk. It knocks them down pretty good. If I just hunted for deer i'd use much less.

  We all have our ideas  of a heavy load. 15/16  x 54 cal 75 grs. A flintlock of this wall thickness in my thinking is thin. Need to be sure ball is down on the powder.

[WadePatton]

Steve Zihn built my gun, when he sent it to me he said the most accurate load he came up with was 90 grains of 3f I believe it was Goex, anyway I just stuck with that, and yes it seems to be very accurate. Just out curiosity sake I wanted to see what a max load of 2f would be like. It is a .62 cal.

My apologies for not replying directly on your post even when I quoted it last. 

If you've only ever shot 90x3F then you can't even know if that's the most accurate for you.  I trust that it's accurate enough.

To replicate that load in 2F you have to use more volume of powder JUST to equal the same weight of 3F powder.  Then you may have to tweak the load for burn rate.  You cannot know without shooting, properly benched. 

I don't know what you're hunting but that should be plenty of "power".

[OldMtnMan]

Here in southern Indiana we shoot a lot of 3f as it does not seem to dirty as quick. Thin walls or heavy hunting loads should use 2f.

What do you call a heavy hunting load? I use 85gr Goex 3F .54 PRB for elk. It knocks them down pretty good. If I just hunted for deer i'd use much less.

  We all have our ideas  of a heavy load. 15/16  x 54 cal 75 grs. A flintlock of this wall thickness in my thinking is thin. Need to be sure ball is down on the powder.

I feel safe. Lyman says my gun is good up to 100gr of 3F. I'm sure that's conservative if that's what they call the max load.

[little joe]

Here in southern Indiana we shoot a lot of 3f as it does not seem to dirty as quick. Thin walls or heavy hunting loads should use 2f.

What do you call a heavy hunting load? I use 85gr Goex 3F .54 PRB for elk. It knocks them down pretty good. If I just hunted for deer i'd use much less.

  We all have our ideas  of a heavy load. 15/16  x 54 cal 75 grs. A flintlock of this wall thickness in my thinking is thin. Need to be sure ball is down on the powder.

I feel safe. Lyman says my gun is good up to 100gr of 3F. I'm sure that's conservative if that's what they call the max load.

Where do you find this in a lyman book?