Need Help Identifying Kentucky Musket Barrel Maker Marked J W

[quanjito]

I am new t this forum ad have been advised that the people here are very knowledgable about the black powder rifles of various eras. I am in need of assistance identifying a barrel Marked J and W with a star shaped symbol in the middle. The barrel is 40 inches long and the shank is one inch long although it is cracked. Bringing the total to 40 inches. Smoothbore in .44 Caliber. I could sure use some help in identifying the maker and finding appropriate parts for it. Thank you for your time.

[Mike Brooks]

Looks like a rifle barrel to me. Hard to tell where it's from or who the maker is with out some wood attached.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

I don't have an answer, but this may add to the problem.  In the period a capital "J" was identical to a capital "I".  So, this signature may indeed be either "IW" or "JW"  Here is a copy of a document from 1790 showing both the "I" and "J, you can see that they are the same.

Jim

[Brent English]

Quanjito: I think by your question you might be under the assumption that the barrel was part of a mass-produced gun that you can find parts.  Finding an old muzzle loading barrel like yours is not like finding a barrel from a model 94 Winchester.  Those old guns were all hand made and there is no interchangeability to the parts.  If you want to have someone build a new muzzle loader around your old barrel, you can find craftsman that frequent this forum that will do that for you.   Just the initials are not enough to go on, as Mike Brooks said, you'd need at least the stock to go with the barrel to try to narrow in on who the maker might have been.  The stock styling would give a lot of clues as to when and where the gun may have been made.   Hope this helps.

[MGillman]

PM sent. I have seen this same script before.

[wormey]

I have a friend who has a longrifle with this exact marking.  He is familiar with the maker and I will alert him to your post.  I`m sure he can help with your questions.  Wormey

[Shreckmeister]

Oooh big secrets....

[Burg]

Wormey asked me to respond to your barrel marking question.  I am happy to provide you with the information I have managed to accumulate on "J * W".  This is the exact marking that is on a rifle that came down through the family of the man who got me and Wormey started down the muzzleloading rifle path 58 years ago.  The rifle was passed down to him by his grandfather and has resided in the Rutherford county area of western NC, in all probability, since it was built by JW in Rowan County NC.  The distance that it traveled is approximately 50 miles.  It took me a while to identify this rifle and its area of manufacture.  It looks a lot like an iron mounted mountain rifle and I was finally able to identify it with the help of a knowledgeable good friend.  My rifle and your barrel is from the hands of John Waisner Jr born in 1808 in Rowan county, NC who was orphaned and apprenticed to Henry Bruner III in 1816.  My barrel is 43 5/16" long with a 3 screw tang that is 7" long.  The first screw is 1 1/8" behind the breech of the barrel.  It is rifled and is approximately 40 caliber as measured with a 2" long plug gauge...measured at the muzzle a 45 caliber plug gauge fits.  The C/L of the front sight is 1 1/2" from the muzzle and the C/L of the rear sight is 11 3/4" from the breech.  There is no evidence that the barrel has been shortened.  The signature "plaque" runs from 3 7/8" to 6 15/16" from the breech.  You can find your J * W signature on rifle number 153 in North Carolina Schools Of Longrifles 1765-1865 by William W Ivey, Photography By Kenneth Orr.  Rifle number 152 is also by John Waisner Jr.  I will try to take some photographs to post because the rifle has beautiful architecture.

[wormey]

I would like to honor the memory of the man Burg mentioned in the above post.  His name was Albert Helton of Forest City, N.C.  Albert retired from Coca Cola and was of limited means.  He was very knowledgeable and patient with youngsters like Burg and me.  He was the first man I knew who could forge and temper springs.  He could rifle a barrel or forge one too for that matter. He left a legacy and inspired many.  Rest in peace Albert!  It was his grandfather who owned this rifle originally and perhaps his father before that.  Burg is fortunate to own it and I know Albert is proud.

[Hungry Horse]

 For what it's worth, the barrel looks like it was rifled at one time, and then shot smooth. The muzzle is not the nice round bore that smooth rifles have. I think the slight irregularities are the badly worn grooves of the long gone rifleing. The gun was obviously a fullstock, and could have originally been a flintlock, converted in later life to a cap lock. The lug under the barrel, shows that the barrel was secured to the stock with barrel keys, rather than pins. The barrel has very nice clear initials cut into it. You did not say if it was swamped or not. That could give you some indication of age, and if it ever was a flintlock.

 Hungry Horse

[quanjito]

I would like to thank all of the fine people on this site. I am a member of several forums and I have never had such a warm response by so many people. I do thank you for all of you help. I myself have spent many years rewelding guns from the WWII and Korean Era and occassionally come across black powder and other pre 1875 era firearms. I do thank you indeed and if I can help in any way to contribute to this forum I will. Thank you very Much,


Joseph Bradley

[Burg]

My J*W rifle is a flintlock and the barrel is pinned in.  I have not removed the barrel so at this time do not know if the underlugs are slotted.  It was probably made the 1820-1825 date range.  Regarding Albert Hilton, he could do it all including deep hole drilling, cutting new rifling in a barrel using another barrel as a guide, color case hardening using a snuff can and the leather scraps and bone charcoal he made, and any other skill required for building a rifle or pistol.  He had a keen intellect and a curious mind.  Yet he did not call himself a gunsmith...he preferred a gun mechanic.  I do miss him to this day as does Wormey.

[mbriggs]

After Bill Ivey published his book "North Carolina Schools of Longrifles 1765 - 1865" in 2012 a new outstanding rifle by John Waisner, Jr. surfaced with a family living west of the Catawba River.  The rifle is relief carved, has a brass patchbox, Rowan School triggers, and a unusual carved molding along the lower butt-stock and repeated out the fore-stock.  Kenneth Orr photographed this new rifle and I was able to include these photos in my new book "The Longrifle Makers of the Rowan School."  The new rifle has the same J W in script inlaid in a silver plate in the barrel.

John Waisner, Jr. was a very talented gunsmith, but there is a limited number of his rifles to study.

Michael   

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

....Greetings, quanjito....It would be interesting to all here to know where the barrel was found.......how far did this gun wander from Rowan County...??.....Thanx...!!!

[quanjito]

I received this barrel along with around 1,500 other barrels from an estate in Tennessee by the north Carolina border, the family was originally from gaston county nc.

[Ky-Flinter]

Holy Smokes!  1500 barrels!?!

-Ron

[wormey]

Wow!  Anything else in the lot besides barrels?  Locks?

[quanjito]

Just barrels, mainly for modern shotguns and  rifles. Some black powder shotguns. I did get a barrel of small parts. But identifying them could take months.

I was hoping to build this barrel up, but after some research, it is just too cost prohibitive. I am glad to be able to I D it though. I guess I will put more barrels up here to see if I can build something for less than a grand though. Again, I than you for your time and help.

Joseph bradley

[Brent English]

If you want to sell any of that old muzzle loading stuff, I encourage you to post it in the classified section of this group.  I'm sure you'd find some interested buyers.

[Burg]

Where do I find help for adding pictures?

[Ky-Flinter]

Where do I find help for adding pictures?

Take a look at this.... http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.0

-Ron

[Burg]

Photographs of my J Waisner  Jr rifle: 

























image hosting over 5mb

[wormey]

I had forgotten how nice that rifle was.  I hope you fee a little guilty about cheating me out of it when I was so young and uninformed!  I am glad we know know who built it, I just wish Albert had known during his lifetime.  He would be proud that you have it and treasure it as much as he did.  I am glad it landed in your care when his grandson disposed of it.  I trust that you will make sure that the next owner knows who built it and through whose hands it has passed in the last 150 years or so .  Wormey

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

...BURG.....Thanx for pix...!!...Those old mountain rifles are my favorite......I have connections in the Henderson Co. area....Plain and no buttplate...!!.....seems lock is replaced....ever thought of putting in a fitting lock and sideplates....

[quanjito]

Thank you for the pics, I tried to put the barrel up for sale on this site, but ran afoul of some of the rules, Like having to wait 30 days, and I listed it on ebay so, I did not realise you cannot have third party sites on here, but thank you for helping me identify this barrel. I wish I could build it up, but the cost is too prohibitive, so I am selling it to fund another project. Again, thanks for all of your help.

Joseph Bradley