Author Topic: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol  (Read 6649 times)

Offline Justin Urbantas

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Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« on: January 11, 2017, 10:23:09 AM »
I am having some difficulty figuring out which lock to use for a Ketland.  My first thought is the Chamber's late Ketland, but I am concerned that it is too big. My second choice is the John Bailes/Manton. What about modifying a small Siler?  I plan on using a .62 swamped smoothbore barrel from MBS.  Any input or suggestions would be appreciated.

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 02:12:45 PM »
What period pistol are you making?

Offline Justin Urbantas

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2017, 07:53:54 PM »
later period. 1800-1820

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2017, 09:55:44 PM »
How about Ryan & Watson?


Lockplate 4-13/16" long. Neither tumbler nor pan bridle.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 04:35:32 AM by Dennis Glazener »

Offline Justin Urbantas

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2017, 09:59:11 PM »
does anyone make a lock like the Ryan and Watson? Looks like exactly what I need

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2017, 01:35:08 AM »
...... Neither tumbler nor pan bridle.

How can that lock not have a tumbler?  What is the cock mounted on?

-Ron
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2017, 02:00:22 AM »
No tumbler bridle, I suspect.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2017, 03:23:10 AM »
Yup, no tumbler bridle. No frizzen (hammer) bridle. As simple as it gets, an unbridled lock.  Keeps cost down.
Brass barrel stamped "LONDON", with Birmingham proof marks. About .62 caliber





Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2017, 03:46:42 AM »
Ah, no tumbler bridle.  My mistake.  Thanks for the clarification.

-Ron
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Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline Justin Urbantas

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2017, 03:56:15 AM »
looks like it would be a really simple lock to forge

Offline redheart

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2017, 05:24:21 AM »
The Rifle Shoppe offers a complete parts set for a Brass Barrel Ketland Trade Pistol with a lock marked Ketland & Co. for about $700. If you want the lock castings for about $150 or the assembled lock for about $300 they'll sell you those too. All castings are from an original. Their delivery is slow but, they are honest.

Offline Justin Urbantas

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2017, 06:39:42 AM »
I hear stories of people waiting a year and a half or more for parts. I like their stuff, but unless I don't need it for a while I will pass for this project.

Offline redheart

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2017, 08:09:59 AM »
You could call them. If they have the items in stock they'll send them quickly. If they have to cast them up you'll wait for sure.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2017, 03:22:00 AM »
Justin,

The late Ketland lock may be your best choice for a commercial lock.  The Ketland trade pistol below, which dates to the 1790’s, has a lock that is 5” long and ⅞” high or about the same dimensions as the Chamber's late Ketland.




The Ryan & Watson lock that JCKelly showed is very typical of locks found on trade pistols of the period you’re interested in.  The least expensive ones had no bridles while some of little higher grade did have bridles.  Unfortunately, none of the commercial lock makers today offer a comparable trade lock.

Back in the 1970’s, Frank Straight started a company called Green River Forge.  In addition to mountain man clothing and paraphernalia, they offered a reproduction Northwest Trade Gun, a rifle they called the Astorian, and a replica trade pistol called a Hudson’s Bay Factor’s Pistol.  The latter was supposedly copied from an original Barnett trade pistol in Straight’s personal collection.  I bring this up because Green River Forge used a modified CVA flintlock on their pistol.  The lock they started with was one of these.



The modifications resulted in the lock below.  Note the tail has been rounded, the pan was reshaped, most of the cast-in engraving was filed off, and a tumbler safety added.



The original trade pistols were built to a pattern, and even though different makers may incorporate a few of their own touches, pistols by various makers still looked pretty much alike.

I have another trade pistol that has “W & S ROOKE” on the lock.  Baily and Nie list a William and Samuel Rooke operating in Birmingham from 1820-1837 and Samuel only from 1837-1839. 



The shape of this lock is very similar to the one JCKelly posted, especially the shape of the cock, but it is a more expensive grade with pan and tumbler bridles, roller on the frizzen spring, and better engraving.

What is really interesting is comparing the GRF Hudson’s Bay Factor’s Pistol to the W & S Rooke pistol.



Obviously, the same trade pistol pattern.

You occasionally see an old CVA lock like the one above for sale on eBay, though the price can vary a lot.  I think CVA discontinued importing the bridled lock decades ago, and replaced it with an unbridled lock like the Ryan & Watson lock.  I’ve seen more of these unbridled CVA locks on eBay than the bridled.

You might look around to see if you can find an old CVA flintlock.  If you can’t find one, then go with one of Chamber's late Ketland locks.  If you keep the lock panels very narrow like on the original Ketland pistol shown above, it shouldn’t be too big for your pistol.

A .62 swamped smoothbore barrel from MBS would be a good choice for your Ketland trade pistol.  My two round barrel trade pistols have barrels under 9 inches.  It looks like the MBS barrel is 10" long.  You could easily shorten it to 8¾” or 8⅞” long.  Don't worry about cutting off the flare end of the swamped barrel.  The barrels on my pistols are essentially a straight taper with little or no swamp.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 04:38:09 AM by Dennis Glazener »
Phil Meek

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2017, 05:20:24 AM »
JC Kelly , and Mr Meeks, Thanks for the education ,nothing like seeing the real thing for sure . Thanks for sharing your info.       Nathan

Offline Justin Urbantas

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2017, 09:45:55 AM »
Thanks Phil. That helps a lot.
Did you mean this lock?
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/724/2/LOCK-KL-FL-RH
They call this one the Classic Ketland, and it looks a lot like the Rooke lock.
The late ketland has a flat tail to it, and looks bigger. I don't have my Track catalog with the full size pictures with me at the moment.
I was thinking that I would cut the MBS barrel down to around 8" or so like you say.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2017, 10:35:06 AM »
Thanks Phil. That helps a lot.
Did you mean this lock?
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/724/2/LOCK-KL-FL-RH
They call this one the Classic Ketland, and it looks a lot like the Rooke lock.
The late ketland has a flat tail to it, and looks bigger. I don't have my Track catalog with the full size pictures with me at the moment.
I was thinking that I would cut the MBS barrel down to around 8" or so like you say.

Yes, Track's Classic Ketland is the lock I'm referring to as Chamber's late Ketland.  It represents the same style and period as the Rooke lock and the Ryan & Watson lock.  Just a little larger in size.

The other Ketland lock is an earlier style with a long pointed tail similar to the lock marked "KETLAND & Co."
Phil Meek

Offline Justin Urbantas

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2017, 08:58:24 PM »
Perfect! I like the style as well, and it seems the closest. I will use it.
The nice thing about the Ketlands are they are not exactly a slim and trim  holster pistol, so I think a slightly larger lock should be fine with it.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Lock choice for a Ketland trade pistol
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2017, 10:10:32 PM »
Mtn Meek - like those pistols of yours. I like flint pistols in general.

Yours are shaking my resolve, being of Advanced Age, not to add more stuff for my family to throw out.

But maybe just one more English flintlock pistol . . .