Long range ML shooting and the US International team

[snapper]

The United States International Muzzle Loading Team (USIMLT) is looking for a few good men and women to join our teams.

There are two different teams within the USIMLT. The short range team and the long range team.

This note will focus on the long range team.

The World Matches are held every 2 years. This year it will be held in October in Adelaide Australia. The check in and rifle inspection is on a Sunday, shooting starts on Monday morning and continues throughout the week ending on Saturday night with an awards banquet.

There are usually around 12 countries from around the World represented at these matches. Each country is limited to the number of shooters that they can bring.

There are specifications for the rifles. Most are shooting .45 cal conical bullet. Paper patch or grease groove. Peep sights are used.

The coarse of fire is at 300, 500, 600, 900 and 1,000 yards, or meters, depending on where in the World the match is held.

Everyone competes as an individual, then after the individual matches are held, team matches are shot.

The coarse of fire for the short range portion is 10 shots for score at 300, 500 and 600 yards. The short range is shot prone, without any body support other than a sling. Practice sessions are intermixed between the actual shoot for score. The long range portion at 900 and 1,000 yards is shot with a wrist rest and a sling if you like.

Once the shooter hits paper there is no coaching or help allowed. If you get on paper, then for some reason are missing the target high, low, left or right you are on your own and have to figure it out yourself.

You are squaded for the week with 3 other shooters from different countries. This makes it hard to cheat for scoring. The firing is done with 2 shooters at a time, one person in the pit pulling and scoring the target, one person scoring and spotting for the shooters, and you rotate between shooting, pit and scoring. You pair fire with the same person all week.

The targets are a British V bulls. With the highest score per shot being a 5, and when a bulls-eye is scored it is recorded as a V, not an X.

After the 300, 500 and 600 yard targets are shot, each country picks 4 shooters to represent their country for the team shoot at these same targets. These four shooters are typically the 4 that scored the highest during the individual matches.

Next comes the long range portion at 900 and 1,000 yards. 15 shots are fired at each of these targets, with practice session worked in between the matches. After everyone shoots as an individual at the long range, each country again picks their 4 best shooters to shoot as a team at the long range targets for their country for team honors.

I have only shot at the matches in 2009 and 2015 when the matches were held in the United States. I am planning on going to AU for the matches this fall.

Shooting the matches the first year was a bit intimidating, In 2009 I had never shot at 1,000 yards in my life had some work to do. In 2015 I had a better handle on what to expect and also had 6 more years of experience shooting long range.

The matches are also very much about meeting new people and getting connected with people that you become friends with at prior years matches.

In 2015 the motel I stayed in I was right next the the AU team and got to know them quite well. They were a great bunch of people and we took to each other quite readily. One night after the matches I introduced them to root beer, then of coarse once I learned that they had not ever had root beer before, the next night I bought ice cream and we had to have root beer floats.

If you have an interest in shooting long range the first match of the year is at Oakridge TN the 24th and 25th of March. The coarse of fire will be 200, 300, 600 and 1,000 yards.

The Long Range International team will have a shoot June 12,13 and 14th at Camp Butner, NC. All are welcome to come to this match.

We would welcome new shooters.

I often wonder what it would of been like at the first World match held at Creedmoor NY in 1874.  At this match there were thousands of people attending the matches to watch the shooters and most of the country knew of the matches being held.

If you are looking for a good read, pick up the book "Irish Riflemen in America".

thanks for looking

The following pictures are from the 2015 World Long Range match.

For more information on the teams you can also go to the web site.
http://www.usimlt.com/index.html


Fleener

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks for the pics. I envy those that can see well enough to be competitive with iron sights. It's all scopes for me to shoot seriously now.

[WaterFowl]

These long ranger shooters have dedication...Looks like fun....Thanks for posting...

[T*O*F]

Discuss the costs of getting started, what equipment is required to be competitive, and the two classifications of rifles.

[broadarrow]

Hi Snapper,

John & Dianne Humberstone and Mark all told me of your Root Beer floats John in particular thought they were the best thing going.

Regards, Peter B.

[snapper]

Broadarrow, welcome to the ALR.

I really enjoyed the AU team, great bunch of folks.  I have traded some emails with Diane and Mark and I stay in touch.  Mark shot really well considering the rifle was delivered to him at the match.

Fleener

[snapper]

In the world match there are two classifications, original and reproduction for rifles.  An original must have the original barrel, can not be sleeved.   All of the other matches held in the US has only one class and all rifles original and replicas shoot together.

Pedersoli makes their Gibbs rifle that can be and are very competitive.  The cost of these rifles are in the $1,200 range.  Rod England is making or will be making the Alex Henry style English sporting rifles.  He is picking up from Don Brown after he passed on a few years ago.  I have 2 of these rifle from Don Brown.  Lee Shaver is making a rifle, however he is apparently not filled his orders yet from 4 years ago.

The cost to play in this game is not necessary any more expensive than other ML shooting.  However you cant just go buy a $300 rifle like a TC or Lyman and shoot it.

Fleener

[T*O*F]

Gibbs rifles are now up to $1800-2000.  The Deluxe (engraved) model is $3900.
The last time I priced Rod's part set, it was around $1400 without sights.

Good sights are necessary to be competitive.  Most get rid of Pedersoli's sights.  Good sights are an additional expense, running upwards of $600-1000.

How about bullet molds and swages?  Will any bullet shoot well in a particular rifle or must one try several styles and diameters?

Are there caliber and weight restrictions?

Where are ranges located that allow one to practice at the required distances?

At the World Matches, does the home team have an advantage because all others must use their supplied powder, which might be different than your accurate load.  How do you compensate in limited practice conditions?

Have I covered everything?

[snapper]

Good sights certainly are a must.  Even with the best sights made, you can and do still have some issues.

For my original Rigby I ended up going with sights made in South Africa since they were close to original design for my rifle

The rifles can be fussy regarding the bullets, hardness, type, wads and powder charges.  I have 2 custom molds that I use, one for GG and one for PP. 

I have 3 rifles that I am actively using for competitive shooting.  I have worked up really good loads for each of those rifles using 86 grains of 2f swiss.  I use 86 grains of 2 F in 6 rifles that I and my son use most often.  I use an electronic powder measure to weight my powder and then it goes into a small plastic vial.    With only having one powder weight (86 grains) in the vials keeps me from accidentally grabbing the wrong powder charge for a match.

For me I work up a load at 100 yards to start with.   If it does not shoot well at 100 yards in my experience it wont shoot well at farther ranges.  I am happy if I can get a 1" or better group consistently at 100 yards.  The 3 rifles that I am currently using will shoot a sub MOA group at 100 yards.  I have also shot sub MOA groups at 200 yards with these rifles as well.

Before the World match with my Rigby the best I could do at 100 yards consistently was around 1.25" at 100 yards and that was with 70 grains of powder.  Anything more that that my groups would open up.  Even though I knew my groups would open up, I was shooting 75 grains at 900 and 1,000 yards.

I run my GG bullets through a sizer and lube with a home made lube.   Equal parts of crisco (butter flavored, just because that is what my wife buys), bees wax from my bees, and a little olive oil.  For the PP bullets I use a onion skin paper that is really old that I found on Ebay.  I tired several different papers and sizes of bullets before I settled on my current combination.  I do not use any type of lube on my PP bullets, or grease cookies.  I also wrap my bullets dry.

My PP bullets are really hard compared to other shooters.  I use 16/1 lead/tin for PP, and 20/1 for GG.  My bullets are also very pointed compared to other shooters as well.

In the original matches the rifles were limited to 10 lbs.  All of my rifles are just below 10 lbs.  The Gibbs are closer to 12 lbs, so the rules have been relaxed to allow them to be used.

The only practice I get at 1,000 yards is when I go to a match.   There are no 1,000 ranges in Iowa.   Doing load development while shooting for score at 1,000 yards is not fun.  After the World match in 2015 I was using my original Rigby and my load shot really well at 900 yards, and then the next day I had 2 misses at 1,000 yards.  I had some soul searching to do.  Was it me or the load?  Or both?  The wind condition was really flaky, and my relay was the worse.  People up and down the line were having problems.  I was only shooting 75 grains of powder due to accuracy with that load.  So, after several months of thinking about it and picking some other more experienced shooters minds I think my load at 1,000 yards simply did not have enough power left to push through the variable conditions we were having. 

It took several trips to the range and some experimenting with wads to get my Rigby shoot the way it really should.  I raised the powder charge to 86 grains and started using a combination of two different wads.  Once I hit the right combination, my groups went from 2.5 inches at 100 yards to sub MOA.  Prior to that I was using 70 grains at 200-600 yards, and 75 grains at 900 and 1,000 yards.

86 grains will give me right at 1,300 feet/sec.  Many will tell you that you have to be have at least 1,300 ft/sec for the bullet to have enough power left at 1,000 yards.

Oakridge TN match that Rick Weber host is the first match of the year.  It is a good match to go to, all of the best shooters are there, with the exception of Dave Gullo from ID.  So in 2016 I wanted to shoot my Rigby in this match to see  what it could do at 1,000 yards and if I got the bugs worked out.  For at least that day my rifle worked quite well at 1,000 yards, I was able to win the 1,000 yard match with a score of 80 out of 100.  The average score at 1,000 yards was 58/100.

At the AU matches they will have swiss powder, which is good as that is what I use.  They will have dyna nobel percussion caps, and I have only used CCI magnum caps.  I have purchased 3 thousand dyna nobel caps to use this year to make sure my load does not change for the worse with changing caps.

I really dont practice with the rifles.  Time has been an issue for me with kids activities, a farm to take care of and a job that requires me to travel quite a bit.  Once I get a load worked up I never take the rifle out just to shoot it.  I do hope to change that this year and get out shooting more for practice.

In 2015 I did spend quite a bit of time most nights for a couple of months prior to the World match working on my prone position with my rifle in my living room.  I would lay in position with my arm going numb from the sling for quite a few minutes at a time.  I would pick a spot in the backyard to sight in on like a target, get into position, close my eyes, relax a bit and see if I was still in position.  I also did quite a bit of dry firing while doing this.

I do plan on starting to practicing in my shop shooting prone with an air rifle, perhaps this week.

Getting up and down after each shot does take its toll on you, especially when you do it for 5 or 6 days and if the heat and humidity are high makes it even worse.  At the 2015 World match we had 3 shooters with heat issues, two went to the hospital and spent the night.

I have started to exercise more and am also trying to lose quite a bit of weight before Oct.  Hopefully I am able to stay on coarse.

Fleener

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

What an interesting thread!  I love this stuff.

[bob in the woods]

After a weekend of long range shooting, the up and down does get to you. But so does the recoil. You'll need a shooting mat, as well as a shoulder recoil pad. Mine is made by " PAST" and works wonders. I also recommend elbow pads. [recoil ! ] 

[snapper]

I have to put the white medical tape on my elbows and then put on the elbow pads.  Keeps them from rubbing raw.

Fleener

[Bob Roller]

What an interesting thread!  I love this stuff.

Yes indeed,it's like eating soup with a fork,hard to get enough of it.  These rifles are the ultimate
in classis muzzle loaders and are not cheap. $1400 for the Rod England/Don Brown parts kit is not
much more than it was when Don was alive and he passed away in  2008.I have made around 25
locks for these rifles over the years.Sights are not cheap but neither is traveling to the other end of the planet
to shoot. I went to an International Shoot in Kitchener,Ontario in 1987 and stayed with Ted and Donna Girodat
who treated Roger Weir and myself like royalty.We also picked up Don Brown at the Toronto airport and he had
several Henry style rifles with him.
Good shooting and good fortune and good flights to the US Team.

Bob Roller

[T*O*F]

neither is traveling to the other end of the planet
to shoot.

Another friend of mine was on the short range team, shooting an 1863 Springfield musket.  He attended the world matches in France several years ago.  It cost him $14K out of pocket.  His company underwrote him in part because they had a plant in France which he had to visit while there.  They continued to pay him during that time and picked up a small portion of his travel expenses.

He tried to find sponsors but was not successful.  Unlike some other teams whose country supports them, Americans are on their own.

[Clowdis]

Ended up sharing the range at Butner with these folks a couple of years ago after a scheduling FUBAR by the NC National Guard. Great folks and their shooting does draw a crowd. Tempted to try it myself! I believe the above photos were taken at Butner.

[bob in the woods]

As a member of the DCRA I shot at our range in Ottawa for many years. We hosted the International matches there as well as our annual Canada/USA matches. I did manage to shoot on our Canadian team many times against the US.  Unfortunately I had to stop in 2010 as it just got too expensive for me. Costs were at $22.00 per target so over $400 for a match. [ plus hotel/meals etc]
1000 yard ranges just aren't that plentiful, especially since safety zones around exiting ranges were increased by gov't mandate.
Our Kingston range is now limited to 600 yards .  I'm now building a 38 cal. for intermediate ranges since there's much more opportunity to shoot than long range.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Very interesting thread and very informative. I like competive shooting no mater what event it is. The more you delve into a sport the more money you spend -- that's a fact. It's all part of the "game" .

[snapper]

The pictures are from Butner and I was at that mess up a couple of years ago.  I was not a happy camper driving for two day to get there and find out we did not have the range to shoot.  To make it worse, the first relay when we did start shooting I threw my back out.   Made it tough getting up and down and trying to concentrate shooting.

Fleener

[Clowdis]

Double checked the schedules and it looks like we're all "good to go" for this year. Have some fun!